Training both Chen style and Yang style

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Mrwawa on Tue Sep 06, 2022 9:14 am

Hi all,

I have a few questions for those who have practiced both Chen style and Yang style. I learned CMC 37 form when I was young and have practiced off and on since then. About five years ago, I started learning Feng Zhiqiang's 48 form, along with standing meditation and silk reeling Qigong sets.

I was never able to really develop fajin with Yang style, and feel that with Chen style I am a lot closer and have developed more power. However, I can't seem to get the same "meditative" feeling when doing Chen style as I do with Yang.

I guess I am wondering what your experiences are in doing both. I'm not trying to start a war here, as I see the benefits of both, just wondering if they unite at some point down the path, or should be treated as separate.
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Steve James on Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:09 am

I can't speak about doing Yang and Chen; but, in terms of combining two arts, in your case I'd say do the Chen for fajin and the Yang for the meditative aspects. If you ever have to use your martial arts in the future, imo you won't be able to separate them. You'll be expressing yourself.

If it were possible for you to finish Chen or Yang style in a week, I'd say do one, then the other. But, it's likely you'll be able to work on both for life. So, especially if you're relatively young, add on to your repertoire. "Take what is useful" if you eventually want to use it. That said, do what gives you the greatest reward while you're doing it. Imo, there's no wrong answer, but not every choice will have the same results.

Good luck.
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Sep 06, 2022 12:09 pm

A waste of time
You are learning the same form two different ways
Fa Jin is developed differently in both schools
The 37 develops it so you don’t see it’s development
Just because it looks like it is more obvious in Chen it dosent mean it is stronger when you need it
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby yeniseri on Tue Sep 06, 2022 12:26 pm

When I first learned Yang and Chen style, my teacher(s) insisted that they be done separately, keeping in mind that training was/is like night and day because conditioning is "unique" to say the least, according to the indiviual teacher.
Nowadays, due to my age, I use Chen style as a warmup, memory tool and conditioning while doing Yang or Sun style as my main routine of, and for practice. It changes based on weather, mood and how stiff or loose I am for a particular training session. At times, I dispense with Chen style but practice Yang tyle depnding on how I feel that day and it is mostly wushutaijiquan (40shitaijiquan, 42shitaijiquan, 48shittaijiquan, etc)

What are you training, exactly? Martial, wellness, yangsheng oriented (health/longevity). Personally, It is rare to find soemone who actually teaches the martial element but the daoyin movement workout still benefits anxiety reducing through its slow moving, chansujin (silk reeling) twisting that assists with circulation. Again, walking is on the same level with a different twist (wordplay ??? ;D )
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Mrwawa on Tue Sep 06, 2022 12:38 pm

Thanks for the replies you two. I lean toward taking what I can from both, but do think that fajin is being developed differently in the two styles. However, not sure it amounts to a waste of time, but that thought is in the back of my head.
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby johnwang on Tue Sep 06, 2022 1:45 pm

Mrwawa wrote: fajin is being developed differently in the two styles.

It's easy to find a Yang Taiji teacher. It's difficult to find a Chen Taiji teacher. I will suggest to stay in Chen style as long as you can. Not everybody are lucky enough to have a Chen Taiji teacher.

Chen Taiji, XingYi Lu He, and Baji are 3 styles that are famous in Fajin.
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Bhassler on Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:44 am

You have to define your goals before you can evaluate whether a given approach is likely to reach those goals, or not.
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby robert on Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:26 am

Mrwawa wrote:I guess I am wondering what your experiences are in doing both. I'm not trying to start a war here, as I see the benefits of both, just wondering if they unite at some point down the path, or should be treated as separate.

I started with ZMQ 37 and later learned Wu style while I was doing ZMQ. I switched to Yang family style and later studied xingyi and bagua and eventually learned Chen style which I still study. I switched styles to study with better teachers, there was nothing wrong with any style or system I studied. I could take what I'm currently doing in Chen taiji and apply it all to ZMQ 37, I don't think there's much difference except some details. In terms of taijiquan the principles are laid down in the classics. My experience.
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Bob on Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:46 am

As stated by many in this post, go with the teacher rather than the variation on style:

CHEN TAI CHI FIRST SET DEMONSTRATED BY CHEN FAKE
LEARNING TAIJIQUAN FROM CHEN FAKE - HONG JUNSHENG'S RECOLLECTIONS (EXCERPTS) PART ONE
I translated and edited the text a little adding some explanations (italics in brackets) for better understanding. The original is a part of the book “Practical Boxing Method of Chen Style Taijiquan” written by late Hong Junsheng and published in 1989 by Shandong Science and Technology Press;
Translation© J.Szymanski 2001

In 1928 Chen Fake’s relative (grandson of Chen Yannian, Chen Fake’s uncle), (Chen) Zhaopei, who was in herbal business, came to Beijing escorting herbs delivery and settled in Tianhui Drug Store in Da Mo Chang outside of Qian Men Gate. At that time Taijiquan was already popular in Beijing and there was no practitioner who would not know that Yang Luchan’s boxing came from Chenjiagou in Henan. People heard that Chen Zhaopei was a descendant of Chen clan and boxing expert, so many came to learn from him. After some time the government of Special City Nanjing heard about him and invited him to teach offering very high salary.

Mister (Chen Fake) said: “At that time many people were learning from Zhaopei, and when he was invited to Nanjing with salary of 200 yuan a week, they had not finished learning a complete routine yet; they could not stop him from going, but did not want to give up the study. When Zhaopei saw that students did not want him to go, it became difficult for him to go, but he realized he couldn’t stay in Beijing; he figured out a way to solve the problem: “I learnt boxing from my Third Uncle (i.e. Chen Fake), my uncle’s skill is hundred times better than mine, so the best solution would be to invite my uncle to Beijing to teach, while I would go to Nanjing; this would be beneficial for both of us”. As a result he cordially invited me to Beijing”.

Mister (Chen Fake) said: “I came to Beijing in 1928. At the beginning I stayed in my student’s – Liu Zicheng and Liu Ziyuan – house, and taught them the First and Second Routine of Chen Style, as well as single broadsword and double broadsword. There were two small girls, Yueqiu and Yuehua, in the Zaolin compound where Liu Zicheng and Liu Ziyuan lived, and they also learnt quite well”. (I – i.e. Hong Junsheng – saw these two sisters’ demonstration; each had two tresses and wore violet skirt, their movements were so soft and light; they could jump over one Zhang (i.e. 3meters) in “Jade Girl Works at Shuttles” and “Wrap Crackers”; in “Stand on One Foot and Stretch Down” they could stretch so low that their thighs could touch the ground; they were very good material for martial arts. In 1956 when I came to Beijing for the second time, Zicheng was half-paralyzed, Ziyuan did not practice anymore; the most painful was the fact that both girls died because of scarlet fever!). At that time many quite famous martial artists in Beijing were learning from Chen Fake – Xu Yusheng (also known as Xu Chonghou), Li Jianhua (coach at Nort-eastern University, very skilful at Baguazhang), Liu Musan (from Wuxi in Jiangsu Province, director of the Telegram Service Department at Beijing Telegram Bureau, very good at Wu Style Taijiquan), Liu Ruizhan (doctor), and Shen Jiazhen (famous for his book “Chen Style Taijiquan” published in 1963) and others. Chen Fake accepted at least several hundred disciples over the period of thirty years; I was one of those who were accepted as disciples in 1930. (…)

Lucky to meet a good teacher
As a child I was of weak physique and often sick, and when 17 I dropped out of school because of illness; when I got married at the age of 20 I realized the reason I was often ill was that I was too lazy and did not do any physical exercises. I decided to change bad old habit and was going out everyday in the morning for a two hours’ walk. Beijing’s Xian Nong Altar, Temple of Heaven, Jinan’s Daming Lake and Botu Spring were the places I often visited. Since that time I was gradually getting healthy. However my body still could not deal with changes of the seasons and weather. In winter 1929 all of a sudden I caught Dongwen (winter epidemic febrile disease in traditional Chinese medicine) and had to stay in bed for three months until 1930. Zhou Huaimin (from Wuxi, skilful landscape painter,…), my neighbor from the same compound, introduced me to Mr.Liu Musan and I started to learn Wu (Jianquan) style Taijiquan from him. After few months we saw an article in Beijing Xiao Shi Bao newspaper about Yang Xiaolou, famous Wusheng (actor in traditional Beijing opera playing physically very demanding roles of soldiers), who after learning boxing from Chen Fake of Chengou village became healthy and was able to perform again; as a result, after checking with many people, we asked Mr.Yiyuan to invite teacher Chen to teach boxing at Mr.Liu’s house. At that time over thirty students of Mr.Liu, employees of Beijing Telegram Bureau, all came to learn from teacher Chen, so did I.

In the beginnings of my Wu style Taijiquan studies, teacher Liu (i.e. Liu Musan) told me, that the slower the movements, the better the skill, that is: the better the skill, the slower one can practice. When teacher Chen came for the first time to teacher Liu’s house, after exchanging the greetings, he (i.e. Chen Fake) performed the First and the Second Routine of Chen style Boxing; everybody prepared over an hour to admire famous master’s art. Unexpectedly the demonstration of both routines took only several minutes, and the Second Routine contained some leaping and very fast movements, and Chen’s stamping shook tiles on the roof. Teacher Chen sat (with us) for a while after the demonstration and then left. Afterwards everybody was making comments – some said Chen practiced so fast, that considering the principle “move like pulling the silk” the silk would tear; some said stamping did not conform with the rule of “taking steps like a cat”. However teacher Liu said: “Although the movements were fast, they were all round; although the power was issued, he was still relaxed; since we invited him, we should learn; after we learn the routine, we ask him to teach Pushing Hands; if he is better than I, then we continue to learn the Second Routine”. Hearing this we all decided to study with Chen Fake.

The first question I asked teacher Chen when we started out study was “Should the movements be slow or fast?”. The teacher answered: “The beginners should practice slowly, so that the movements are correct. Practice makes perfect, so after long time one can naturally be fast and steady; when fighting the speed of the movements depends on the opponent’s speed; practicing slowly is the method to learn the boxing, but it is not the goal. However when movements are slow, the legs are exercised for a longer time, which is also beneficial.” Since that moment I kept my mind on my study. However the way I was learning is worth mentioning, so I’m writing it below for reference.

TO BE CONTINUED
End of “Learning Taijiquan from Chen Fake – Hong Junsheng’s Recollections (Excerpts) – Part One”; © J.Szymanski 2001



https://www.taiji-bg.com/chen-fake-firs ... e-tai-chi/
Last edited by Bob on Wed Sep 07, 2022 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Bao on Wed Sep 07, 2022 11:42 am

Some good replies.

Chen stylists can be just as soft as Yang stylists, Yang stylists can be just as powerful as Chen stylists. However, if something feels powerful it means that the strength is trapped inside your own body. If you hit someone with real tai chi jin, then for you, it will feel like nothing.

Chen style fajin is similar to what many styles regard as basic practice, beginners stage practice. Look at Xingyi and Baji for instance, they start as solid, much Xingyi in the first stage is quite hard. But at later stages these arts becomes softer, looser and "empty".

So Chen style fajin is ok as beginners practice, especially for learning coordination, but for this type of fajin to be practically useful and powerful, you still need to develop extreme softness. This is not only my view, but what people as Chen style master Chen Zhenglei have stated. So if you want to develop power, you can start by either studying soft or solid, but the end result should be the same.

Some people would recommend to focus on one style first, maybe at least a couple of years or more, and then try the other one and see if that one suits you better. Even if they are both Tai Chi and based on the same principles, you will practice them with different mind-sets and focus. Progress might go slower and you could find it harder to achieve the right focus. On the other hand, sometimes different styles compliment each other and brings value to the other.

So maybe it's better to just follow your own instinct and try to have confidence in yourself and that you make the correct choices. After all, we all need different things in different stages of our our lives, and our paths are all different.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Sep 07, 2022 11:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby windwalker on Wed Sep 07, 2022 11:52 am

Mrwawa wrote:Hi all,

I have a few questions for those who have practiced both Chen style and Yang style. I learned CMC 37 form when I was young and have practiced off and on since then. About five years ago, I started learning Feng Zhiqiang's 48 form, along with standing meditation and silk reeling Qigong sets.

I was never able to really develop fajin with Yang style, and feel that with Chen style I am a lot closer and have developed more power. However, I can't seem to get the same "meditative" feeling when doing Chen style as I do with Yang.

I guess I am wondering what your experiences are in doing both. I'm not trying to start a war here, as I see the benefits of both, just wondering if they unite at some point down the path, or should be treated as separate.


Very much depends on the level and depth of one's practice as to what finds different or not....

Yang style variants CMC / Tung / Wu are all quite different expressions using the same theories
very incompatibly with each others practice...

Have been through this process myself, had to rework things after meeting teachers in line with what I was following.

Later when working with others from the styles mentioned coming for help with their practice.
Very difficult to change ingrained patterns of movement, more so for those coming from other taiji styles feeling that "they" are the same..


Fajin :)

small story

A chen practitioner once asked me how come yang style didn't have "fajin" although what I practiced at the time would be more noted
as a variation of "yang's" style

I said it did...asked him if I could feel his Chen "fajin"

He used a movement against my body, quite strong and direct

I said ok, my turn and did the same to him....

It passed through him....He didn't move and said he didn't feel anything...
Said ok, now I will follow with my body....same movement, this time he fell down to the ground and looked kind of shocked...

Different methods develop and express different ideas....

pulling silk, silk reeling

very different ideas...

My experience , others may have different ones :)
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Mrwawa on Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:17 pm

Hi all,

Sorry for the slow replies. For some reason, every time I try to post, I get logged out. This is a test.
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Bhassler on Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:22 pm

Mrwawa wrote:For some reason, every time I try to post, I get logged out. This is a test.


That happens. It's a best practice to copy your post to your clipboard before posting, so if you get logged back out you can just paste it back in and try again. Especially if it's a longer post or something you've put some thought into.
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Mrwawa on Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:22 pm

Okay, seems to be working now.

Thanks for all the replies; you gave me a lot to think about. Bao, you are exactly correct that my fajin is at the beginning stages, and my next objectives should be to relax into the power more. That's always the tough part, I guess.

As for Chen and Yang moving different, I am not sure what specifically to look for. My main focus for now is o. Chen style, with Yang just being a fun diversion. Wayne Hansen wrote that is a waste of time, and probably is. My wife thinks both styles are a waste of time. Haha. :P
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Re: Training both Chen style and Yang style

Postby Bhassler on Wed Sep 07, 2022 6:29 pm

windwalker wrote:Very much depends on the level and depth of one's practice as to what finds different or not....

Yang style variants CMC / Tung / Wu are all quite different expressions using the same theories
very incompatibly with each others practice...


Agreed. Practical Method, Village style, and the Beijing lineages of Chen style are different enough they really shouldn't even be considered the same art. Same with Tung vs. CMC vs. Chen Pan Ling in Yang style, etc. It's been a while, but from what I recall and what I can see in video, Tung family taiji is probably closer to the Beijing Chen lines than the Village style or Practical Method are. Then again, I suppose it all depends on your background and what you're looking for.

I kind of feel like anyone who thinks that "all roads lead to Rome" has never been anywhere...
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