Training both Chen style and Yang style

[windwalker]

Then again, I suppose it all depends on your background and what you're looking for.


I kind of feel like anyone who thinks that "all roads lead to Rome" has never been anywhere...

indeed

[Steve James]

I kind of feel like anyone who thinks that "all roads lead to Rome" has never been anywhere...

Let alone to Rome

There's an old saying; there may be many paths to the top of the mountain, walking around it explaining the wrong paths is the only waste of time.

[everything]

don't want to give you the wrong roadmap to Rome, and I haven't gotten to Rome, yet, either, but a couple of points to think about:

- if you want "inner", it seems easier to minimize the "outer" variables first. fangsong, mind/body connection, qigong are challenging already. these may be some of the reasons why zhan zhuang is recommended by multiple past IMA teachers.
- if you want strength, why not do deadlift, squat, bench, core (roughly speaking). you'll be very strong very soon.

[windwalker]

don't want to give you the wrong roadmap to Rome, and I haven't gotten to Rome, yet, either, but a couple of points to think about:

- if you want "inner", it seems easier to minimize the "outer" variables first. fangsong, mind/body connection, qigong are challenging already. these may be some of the reasons why zhan zhuang is recommended by multiple past IMA teachers.
- if you want strength, why not do deadlift, squat, bench, core (roughly speaking). you'll be very strong very soon.

mmm

might want to think on that

[everything]

Pistol squat is an interesting squat…

[Mrwawa]

Several of you have mentioned it may be a waste of time or counterproductive to train more than one style, yet many of you also cross-train with other internal or God forbid, external styles. How do we square this?

In my mind, what bhassler pointed out, that Chen style is different from the Beijing, practical method, Chen village lines, makes sense. I currently train in the GM Feng Zhiqiang lineage path, and have seen enough practical method and Chen village to know that I can't do both.

Maybe the rule is, don't practice two styles that are closely aligned, but if there is enough separation, go for it.

[cloudz]

I guess I am wondering what your experiences are in doing both. I'm not trying to start a war here, as I see the benefits of both, just wondering if they unite at some point down the path, or should be treated as separate.

I started with ZMQ 37 and later learned Wu style while I was doing ZMQ. I switched to Yang family style and later studied xingyi and bagua and eventually learned Chen style which I still study. I switched styles to study with better teachers, there was nothing wrong with any style or system I studied. I could take what I'm currently doing in Chen taiji and apply it all to ZMQ 37, I don't think there's much difference except some details. In terms of taijiquan the principles are laid down in the classics. My experience.

yea.. I would go along with something like this. I've had a similar experience of trying different form styles and now blend them to my own taste.
You should at some point know how to practice a form (whatever it may be) in different ways- meditative/ neigong/ fajin/spirally - whatever your focus maybe inclined at any given time. there will be a 'sweet spot' where you are balancing it all in 'one' so to speak - though that maybe not satisfactory for all ongoing training.

currently for example, I'm focusing on slowness mainly, building power through the neigong, moving zhuang style benefits. focusing on forces and mechanics. slower has lot's of benefits for the reason you can really go deep - there is the time.. using mind to move.. taking in smaller and smaller increments.

faster is more for ' performance in a way - in some sense, but also more to how you would be using it ideally, how you move real time. It not the same thing really.
some fajin for sure is helpful etc.

if you feel you can continue both, and do them justice, do that. with enough experience, you will find your way.. I kept up more than one form (never more than two) for a while. But at some point there was no real benefit to that.

This is a good combo as they are on the surface different enough to get more info into your system. It's just a case of doing them both justice. As you learnt and practiced one prior it should be ok.

[cloudz]

I kind of feel like anyone who thinks that "all roads lead to Rome" has never been anywhere...

lol, you can only end up in one place in the end right ?

come on, sorry but that's bollox.

everyone who gives us these forms ended up in their own Rome dude.
it's all there, and if anyone thinks that fixed form is the only way that form can be or should be... Nah.

if anything it's the opposite - trying, I mean taking different roads is what informs you they all lead to 'rome'

example Chen Pan Ling.. he never been anywhere?

[everything]

I guess it depends on your goals? To make a bad analogy, do you want to move through the water efficiently? Or do you want to learn a lot of different swimming strokes for fun or some other reason? Do you want to enter mma comps? Is it historical/intellectual interest? What is "Rome" for you?

[cloudz]

sometimes it's just a matter of talent - we all have different ones
there's no such thing as equality - especially when it comes to ability('s)
go by what you are capable of.
and don't listen to the naysayers about rome.

there's a lot to see there.

it takes years and the dedication to apply to different styles for long enough
did they try it or do it?

so what can they know about it, they can just take a guess based on what cannot be a true perception.

[everything]

[cloudz]

But hey... you can't do so much at once, ever.. somethings you may choose over others ultimately - you find your preference on certain things. those are the forks in the road. sometimes there is a choice.

but these don't pertain to the fundamentals of Taiji. And some guys have mixed other arts in. so that may be a problem - Can't really say as not done one of those.
But I recall this same basic discussion some years ago - we had it out. what are the essentials ? that make up taiji.

Bhassler I seem to recall you taking same position, do you remember.
if anything I'm more entrenched in my opinion than back then.

someone mentioned silk reeling vs reeling silk- they do not clash !

simple as that.

[windwalker]

Several of you have mentioned it may be a waste of time or counterproductive to train more than one style, yet many of you also cross-train with other internal or God forbid, external styles. How do we square this?

In my mind, what bhassler pointed out, that Chen style is different from the Beijing, practical method, Chen village lines, makes sense. I currently train in the GM Feng Zhiqiang lineage path, and have seen enough practical method and Chen village to know that I can't do both.

Maybe the rule is, don't practice two styles that are closely aligned, but if there is enough separation, go for it.

A question was asked, answers given according to the experience of each.
What would there be to square....

Have run into a lot of people who have asked me to help them with their taiji practice feeling that with some small changes or new understanding its possible
not to "correct" their movement but help them get where they feel they want to go....

In my experience having gone through the process its not possible...for a variety of reasons.

the deeper the practice the more pronounced the differences....

My own experience reflecting what others have noted Historically

"張欽霖
Zhang Qinlin kept telling Hu that his jin (internal energy) was wrong - it was a xingyi type, not a taiji type of energy. Hu said that there was nothing he could do"

In the end he had to teach him something that accorded with his previous training....because of his previous training

as always others may find different...

[LaoDan]

I was never able to really develop fajin with Yang style, and feel that with Chen style I am a lot closer and have developed more power. However, I can't seem to get the same "meditative" feeling when doing Chen style as I do with Yang.

I don’t know if this will help, but the Yang style that I learned (I also practice Chen style) had different stages to focus on in its development: 1) relaxation, 2) developing power, 3) relaxation a second time. Many schools seem to only do 1 (while emphasizing the meditative aspects), without moving on to the power stage 2 (e.g., fajin). The third stage is to focus on relaxation again, but the quality of this second relaxation step 3 will be different than step 1 relaxation, it will be developing relaxed power.

[Bob]

Sequential stops along the same road to Rome

Without getting into a long drawn out discussion of a speculative nature and not wishing to argue with Sal - I think that Yang taijiquan is a developmental phase of the overall Taijiquan system (which wasn't what Yang Luchan called it nor the Chen practitioners - Taijiquan as a name was adopted by Yang Luchang) that Yang Luchan chose to teach publicly - speculatively believe that the slowness and breath work for taijiquan evolved out the old long form of taizuquan

BTW Windwalker - Many years back, decades, I had a friend who did seminar work with Ben Lo (he also was in the line 37 posture line) and we compared notes. To our surprise much of Ben Lo's methodology and a similar methodology our training in xaio baji jia - i.e. holding postures throughout the form.