Training both Chen style and Yang style

[Steve James]

However, one can say someone may be on the wrong path to the common purpose of martial arts, if they cannot defend themselves against opponents and threats.

An expert martial artist might get killed in a bar fight; that doesn't mean his martial arts have not served their purpose.

I'd also argue that purpose and "use" are two entirely separate things. Iow, a martial art is a skill; how a martial artist uses that skill is up to them. Everyone who studies fighting could be considered a martial artist. Imo, the difference lies in everything the practitioner does that isn't connected to fighting -like health, but also mental (and spiritual) cultivation and character development. I also think why a person uses their martial training to fight is more important than whether they can fight well, or even win.

In fact, I'd ask a potential student why they wanted to get to Rome in the first place. Some might want to go into the UFC or K1. Others might say they just want to get stronger and healthier. That will determine their paths. People study/train the same martial art for totally different reasons.

[johnwang]

Others might say they just want to get stronger and healthier.

But one doesn't need to train MA to get stronger and healthier.

This dancing is perfect for health. But I'm sure there is something that exist in CMA that doesn't exit in this dancing. What's that? My answer is "martial".

I have created a Yuan Ji dancing form for this group. In my creation, there is a double jumping crescent kick that even the Yuan Ji instrutors could not do it.

[Steve James]

Right. An unhealthy martial artist isn't as effective as a healthy one. Plus, the reason for someone choosing dancing aopt shuaijiao, karate, or tcc as a way to get healthy are different. But, I'd take good health over great skill any day, and especially as I get older.

Now, dancing can also have the benefit of having fun with the opposite sex. Hmmm, back to mixing martial arts, capoeira get togethers can be very nice.

[everything]

aside from "sporting" violence, common forms of violence: domestic violence, police violence, military violence, war crimes, criminal assault, etc., don't need "martial arts" the way we think of them. so "martial arts" don't seem to be used in the main "use cases" (harming others or defending oneself while harming others). by definition, if they aren't "used", they are "useless". which kind of leaves sports and "art" and fun and health and self-cultivation as "uses".

[marvin8]

However, one can say someone may be on the wrong path to the common purpose of martial arts, if they cannot defend themselves against opponents and threats.

An expert martial artist might get killed in a bar fight; that doesn't mean his martial arts have not served their purpose.

It might mean he mixed incompatible or redundant styles causing his MA training to fail him in a fight.

I'd also argue that purpose and "use" are two entirely separate things. Iow, a martial art is a skill; how a martial artist uses that skill is up to them. Everyone who studies fighting could be considered a martial artist. Imo, the difference lies in everything the practitioner does that isn't connected to fighting -like health, but also mental (and spiritual) cultivation and character development. I also think why a person uses their martial training to fight is more important than whether they can fight well, or even win.

In fact, I'd ask a potential student why they wanted to get to Rome in the first place. Some might want to go into the UFC or K1. Others might say they just want to get stronger and healthier. That will determine their paths. People study/train the same martial art for totally different reasons.

Agree. However, my impression was the goal of the OP was to be a better taiji practitioner (e.g., MAist).

A general quote,

It is like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.

That's a classic Buddhist saying actually. It means "don't focus on the path to enlightenment because it distracts from the actual attainment."

Excerpt from "Enlightenment:"

Another thing that is not enlightenment is the path and the practice that we're doing. We have to understand that our practice isn't enlightenment. There is often an idea that the benefit we get from mindfulness meditation, from seeing clearly, is somehow the goal of the practice. Sometimes we present mindfulness meditation in such a way that it appears that the peace and clarity that come from being mindful is the goal, and that enlightenment is therefore somehow a gradual process. Not to say that our practice is disconnected from enlightenment, but enlightenment is not the practice itself.

[Yeung]

Sun Lutang (1921): I received instruction from Hao, practicing daily for several years, and came to somewhat understand the general principles within the art. I also deeply pondered upon my own experiences from my previous training, and then the three arts of Xingyi Boxing, Bagua Boxing, and Taiji Boxing merged to become a single essence. This single essence is yet separated into the three distinct systems. The postures of the three systems are different, but their principles are the same. [translation by Paul Brennan, April, 2015]

Juat make sure you know the principles and not just forms.

[Appledog]

fajin is being developed differently in the two styles.

It's easy to find a Yang Taiji teacher. It's difficult to find a Chen Taiji teacher. I will suggest to stay in Chen style as long as you can. Not everybody are lucky enough to have a Chen Taiji teacher.

Chen Taiji, XingYi Lu He, and Baji are 3 styles that are famous in Fajin.

I'd tend to agree. Didn't Yang Cheng-Fu modify the style for health only? I'd stay with Chen unless you can find a pre Yang Cheng-Fu style. Actually that being said, if you can't learn directly from a lineage holder in Yang style it is not worth it. That lesson took me too many years to work out.

[Bao]

It's easy to find a Yang Taiji teacher. It's difficult to find a Chen Taiji teacher.

I'd tend to agree.

I don't. There are at least ten, twenty times more Yang style teachers than Chen style. That doesn't help. Most of tai chi teachers suck regardless style. Finding a great teacher with authentic knowledge is rare regardless style. It takes more effort to separate the bad ones from the good ones if there are more teachers to choose between.

Didn't Yang Cheng-Fu modify the style for health only? I'd stay with Chen unless you can find a pre Yang Cheng-Fu style. Actually that being said, if you can't learn directly from a lineage holder in Yang style it is not worth it.

It's not as simple as that. Many of YCF's students studied with him both before and after he had changed his style to fit the health market. And a lot of YCF's most famous (and less famous) students studied with his brothers and/or his dad as well. Zheng Manqing for instance studied together with students of Yang Jianhou, and Tian Zhaolin studied first with Yang Jianhou and later with Yang Shaohou. So there are lots of schools who have preserved methods from before YCF screwed things up. But in fact, most of traditional Yang lineages are all mixed up.

And I don't agree that lineage holders are always the best teachers. They tend to teach standardized, simplified curriculums for larger classes. And they are certainly not always the most open and generous teachers.

[Appledog]

And I don't agree that lineage holders are always the best teachers. They tend to teach standardized, simplified curriculums for larger classes. And they are certainly not always the most open and generous teachers.

Well, sure, there is a quality difference of course, not everyone is a good 'teacher' even if they are a good 'martial artist'. But the real difference is that a lineage holder is not free to agree or not, things must be done in a certain way. There are always reasons, of course, but what is important is the promulgation of the lineage -- so, in that sense, as long as the lineage holders know them it's fine if no one else does. It's kind of like a curse.

[everything]

this kind of argument would be like saying only a lineage holder of the teachings of michael jordan or serena williams or messi could teach you "good" basketball, tennis, or football. makes absolutely zero sense if you stop and think for half a second.

[robert]

Didn't Yang Cheng-Fu modify the style for health only?

I would say YCF modified the form to emphasize the health aspect. Fajin practices in YCF style lie outside the form. The name of YCF's taijiquan manual is Methods of Applying Taijiquan. In discussing the applications for the postures he writes about the opponent stumbling backwards, applying a pressing technique to send him out, and so on. If the opponent is stumbling back or being sent out the other person is issuing jin or should be. In the same manual writing about solo methods of practicing the spear he writes -

Find a lush forest to practice this in every day. Get into a horse-riding stance. Both hands hold the spear. Making contact against a tree, do a hundred stabs, then also swish up and down a hundred times. Practice with each hand. You must not use an abrasive energy but a sticking energy. After training for a long time, the tree’s branches can be made to shake.

If the trees branches are shaking that sounds like fajin to me.

Here's a video of YZD doing push hands - there's plenty of fajin in that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BJOP2GJbJY

Here's a video of YJ demonstrating the eight jin of taijiquan and again there's plenty of fajin.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBr1ZIsw_Ow

[Doc Stier]

Didn't Yang Cheng-Fu modify the style for health only? I'd stay with Chen unless you can find a pre Yang Cheng-Fu style.

Agreed. My primary teacher studied with Yang Chien-Hou for two years, and then with Yang Shao-Hou until Yang died. He liked the older methods which he learned from them far more than Yang Cheng-Fu's modified large frame style, so he continued to practice the pre-1930's system, and made it the foundation of his subsequent teaching.

I am very grateful for the opportunity to learn and practice those older methods, and have in turn made them the core curriculum in my own teaching of Yang Style TCC. It's all good.

[Steve James]

Afa YCF modifying the form for health. Imo, Bao is right that it's complicated. It's said he did it as part of the nationalist movement to improve the health of the Chinese people. The eventual popularization of tcc began after he and WCC left teaching at the Nanjing Kuoshu academy. It's important to note that even elderly and ill people have benefitted from his modified form.

Fwiw, most of the tcc "fighters" in competition I've known of were from Yang or Wu branches. Very few of those were from "family" lineages, either. Rather, they were from particular schools that decided to compete. William CC Chen, for ex., was a CMC student. His students competed, and so did his daughter and son, who went pro. Dan Docherty's people in the UK were known to be competitors. I could name a few other Yang or Wu style schools that produced fighters. That's up to 1980 before Chen style was even widely known in the US.

Imo, if you want to fight against people who don't do tcc, find a school with trophies for fighting. lineage or style won't matter. If you want to devote their life to carrying on an art's tradition, then lineage is important.

[johnwang]

if you can't learn directly from a lineage holder in Yang style it is not worth it.

To find a Yang Taiji lineage holder, you may check whether the correct names are used or not.

For example, the correct names are used in Yang Jianhou 杨健侯(1839~1917) lineage.

Correct - Yang Taiji "well fed tiger move back to mountain" (饱 Bao).
Wrong - Yang Taiji "carry tiger back to mountain" (抱 Bao).

The same pronunciation "饱 Bao" and "抱 Bao" has been used by the wrong word. It makes no logic sense that anyone would want to carry a tiger back to mountain.

Correct - Yang Taiji "Shoulder extend to arm" (肩).
Wrong - Yang Taiji "Move arm like fan" (扇).

2 Chinese characters 肩 and 扇 look alike in written and were mis-used by many Yang Taiji teachers. Even if you move your hand in a curve, it still won't look like a fan.

[Bao]

For example, the correct names are used in Yang Jianhou 杨健侯(1839~1917) lineage.

Correct - Yang Taiji "well fed tiger move back to mountain" (饱 Bao).
Wrong - Yang Taiji "carry tiger back to mountain" (抱 Bao).

The same pronunciation "饱 Bao" and "抱 Bao" has been used by the wrong word. It makes no logic sense that anyone would want to carry a tiger back to mountain.

Some older lineages say that it should be "Leopard bao" = 豹, Bào. In that case the name of the move should be "Leopard and Tiger Return to Mountain".

I guess this interpretation must be from Manchu influence, there are leopards (Amur Leopard) in that region (Jilin province), but otherwise in China there are only species in Tibet (Indian Leopard) and in Yunnan (Indochinese leopard). Anyway, obviously 饱 = full (have had enough food), as in "well fed tiger move back to mountain" makes more sense.

BTW, my "Bao" is written this way: 包 (wrap, embrace). My teacher who gave me my Chinese name wanted me to be as sincere and moral as Judge Bao (包拯).

........

So to all of those interested in the Chinese language, all of these characters are pronounced "Bao":

饱 = full
抱 = carry
豹 = Leopard
包 = wrap

In different tones of course, but the tones have changed through history and it may be different in different dialects. Changes are common when things are transmitted verbally. ...Yeah, it's a complicated language...