Training both Chen style and Yang style

[Steve James]

It's also likely that Yang style schools in various cities (Shanghai, Singapore, HK, Beijing, Taipei, etc) would use similar names, which would then be translated into English. That translation just might be based on a specific technique or a specific idea. Moreover, language works through association -so wrap, embrace, envelop, hug, .. can imply the same thing/idea.

Afa "*.* to mountain," it doesn't make sense if one thinks of the movement as a strike. Otoh, "leopard" might imply a particular hand position. So, imo, the words used need to be explained/demonstrated by the people who use them.

[Yeung]

Sun Lutang (1921): I received instruction from Hao, practicing daily for several years, and came to somewhat understand the general principles within the art. I also deeply pondered upon my own experiences from my previous training, and then the three arts of Xingyi Boxing, Bagua Boxing, and Taiji Boxing merged to become a single essence. This single essence is yet separated into the three distinct systems. The postures of the three systems are different, but their principles are the same. [translation by Paul Brennan, April, 2015]

Juat make sure you know the principles and not just forms.

From wiki:
The fundamental principles for Chen style taijiquan are summarized as follows:[6][38]

Keep the head suspended from above (虚领顶劲, xū lǐng dǐng jìn)
Keep the body centered and upright (立身中正, lìshēn zhōngzhèng)
Loosen the shoulders and sink the elbows (松肩沉肘, sōng jiān chén zhǒu)
Hollow the chest and settle the waist (含胸塌腰, hán xiōng tā yāo)
Drop the heart/mind energy [to the dantian] (心气下降, xīn qì xià jiàng)
Breathe naturally (呼吸自然, hū xī zì rán)
Loosen the hips and keep the knees bent (松胯屈膝, sōng kuà qū xī)
The crotch is arch shaped (裆劲开圆, dāng jìn kāi yuán)
Empty and solid separate clearly (虚实分明, xū shí fēn míng)
The top and bottom coordinate (上下相随. shàng xià xiāng suí)
Hardness and softness facilitate each other (刚柔相济, gāng róu xiāng jì)
Fast and slow alternate (快慢相间, (kuài màn xiāng jiàn)
The external shape travels a curve; (外形走弧线, wài xíng zǒu hú xiàn)
The internal energy travels a spiral path (内劲走螺旋, nèi jìn zǒu luó xuán)
The body leads the hand (以身领手, yǐ shēn lǐng shǒu)
The back waist is an axis (以腰为轴, yǐ yāo wèi zhóu)

With reference to:
Chinese Taijiquan Dictionary中国太极拳辞典
Author Yu Gongbao余功保
Publisher People's Sports Publishing House人民体育出版社, 2006
Original from the University of Virginia
Digitized 28 Aug 2007
ISBN 7500928793, 9787500928799

[robert]

Here's another set of Chen Style Taijiquan requirements from one of Chen Bing's disciples - Bosco Baek

My translations

陳氏太極拳 二十五 練拳要訣
Chen Family Taijiquan 25 Important Training Secrets

身法
Shen Fa
Body Method

虛領頂勁
Xu ling ding jin
Lightly press up the top of the head
(Emptiness leads [qi] to top of head)

鬆肩沈肘
Song jian chen zhou
relax/loosen the shoulders, sink the elbows

含胸塌腰, 尾閭中正
Han xiong ta yao, wei lu zhong zheng
Contain the chest, sink the waist, the sacrum is centered and aligned (straight/correctly)

屈膝鬆胯
Qu xi song kua
Bend the knees and loosen/relax the hips

垂臀圓襠
Chui tun yuan dang
Relax the buttocks and round the crotch

下盘稳固
Xia pan wen gu
Pelvis (lower plate) is stable/steady/solid

立身中正
Li shen zhong zheng
Stand up centered and aligned (straight/correctly)

上虛下實, 虛實分明
Shang xu xia shi, xu shi fen ming
The top is empty, the lower part is solid, these should be clearly distinguished

八面支撑
Ba mian zhi cheng (cheng – to support/to push or move with a pole)
Eight sided support


心法
Xin Fa
Mind Method (Intention)

全身放鬆
Quan shen fang song (fang – to release/to let go)
The whole body releases - loosens\relaxes

心氣下降
Xin qi xia jiang
Intend qi to go down, to descend

意守丹田, 氣沈丹田
Yi shou dantian, qi chen dantian
The intention is to guard/watch/observe the dantian, qi sinks to dantian

感受呼吸
Gan shou hu xi (hu – exhale/xi - inhale)
Feel your breath

氣貫周身
Qi quan zhou shen
The whole body is strung together with qi

不丢不頂
Bu diu bu ding
Don't neglect to lightly press up the head


纏絲法
Chan Si Fa
Silk Reeling Method

以腰爲軸
Yi yao wei zhou (zhou - axis/axle/spool [for thread])
Use the waist/lower back as an axis

胸腰折疊
Xiong yao zhe die
Chest and waist bend/fold

丹田運轉
Dantian yun zhuan
Dantian is used to turn/to change direction

節節貫串
Jie jie guan chuan
Joint by joint strung together

意到氣到, 氣到形到
Yi dao qi dao, qi dao xing dao
The intention goes to [a place] and qi goes to [the place], the qi goes to [a place] and the form (body) goes to [the place]

內外相合, 周身一家
Nei wai xiang he zhou shen yi jia
The inside and outside mutually harmonize with the whole body as one family


四大特點
Si Da Te Dian
The Four Characteristics

剛柔幷(相)濟, 快慢相間
Gang rou bing (xiang) ji kua man, xiang jian
Hard together with soft (mutually) aid fast and slow, each one separate

蓄發相變
Xu fa xiang bian
To store and to issue, each one transforms into the other

鬆活彈抖
Song huo dan tan dou
Loosen/relax to shake, to shoot out like a bullet

外形走弧線, 內勁走螺旋
Wai xing zou hu xian, neijin zou luo xuan
The external form moves through an arc, internal strength moves through a revolving spiral

https://chenbing.org/25-secrets

[johnwang]

I would say YCF modified the form to emphasize the health aspect.

When YCF taught his students in the park, Yang Jianhou's student Li Jinglin told my teacher, "Look! YCF is cheating on his students again." Apparently, Li Jinglin knew that YCF didn't teach what he had learned from his father.

Li Jinglin:

[Yeung]

Shen Jiazhen learned from the famous predecessors Yang Jianhou, and later from Yang Chengfu and Chen Fake, maybe this is why he made sense of Taiji principles to Chen Taijiquan in his book.

[robert]

Shen Jiazhen learned from the famous predecessors Yang Jianhou, and later from Yang Chengfu and Chen Fake, maybe this is why he made sense of Taiji principles to Chen Taijiquan in his book.

In Chen Style Taijiquan, in chapter one many of the requirements are listed, including this.

第三特点顺逆缠丝的螺旋运动
The Third Characteristic
Shun (Follow) and Ni (Oppose) Reeling Silk Spiral Movement


拳谱规定:
(1)“运劲如抽丝”;
(2)“运劲如缠丝”·
(3)“任君开展与收敛,千万不可离太极”;
(4)“妙手一运一太极,迹象化完归乌有”。

List of boxing rules:
(1) "Move jin (strength) like drawing silk";
(2) "Move jin (strength) like reeling silk".
(3) "Open and converge, must not be divorced from taijiquan";
(4) "With skill one move one taiji, the signs of transformation vanish."

从上列四项规定中可以看出,太极拳运动必须如抽丝的
形状。抽丝是旋转着抽出来的,因为直抽于旋转之中,自然
就形成一种螺旋的形状,这是曲直对立面的统一。至于缠丝
或抽丝劲都是指着这个意思。

As can be seen from the four rules listed above, taijiquan form movements must be like drawing silk. To draw silk is to rotate, because it is drawn out it rotates, naturally forming a spiral, which is the integration of the curved and straight. As for reeling silk or drawing silk jin (strength) it refers to this idea.

一、运劲如缠丝的实质
One
Move Jin (Strength) as if Reeling Silk



太极拳必须运劲如缠丝,或者说运劲如抽丝。

Taijiquan must move jin (strength) as if reeling silk, or move jin (strength) as if drawing silk.

这两种形
象的比方都是说,运劲的形象如螺旋。同时,这种螺旋又必
须走弧线,尤如子弹通过枪膛中的来福线后,当它运动于空
间时,既有螺旋形的自身旋转,又有抛物线型的运动路线。太
极拳的缠丝劲就要具有这种形象。

These two types of images are analogies, moving jin has the form of a spiral. At the same time, this spiral must move in an arc, as a bullet passes through the barrel of a gun, when it is moving in the air in between (the gun and the target), there are both spiral rotations and a parabolic arc. Taijiquan's reeling silk jin (strength) has this kind of form.

前面已经说明了运劲必须如缠丝的意义,那么在实际运
动中应如何运行呢?说来极平凡而简单,就是在一动全动的
要求下,动作时掌心由內往外翻或由外往內翻 {2} 使之形成太
极图的形象(如图1)。

As has been explained earlier, moving jin (strength) must be as if reeling silk, so in practice how should it work? It's simple to explain, the requirement is one (part) moves all (parts) move, when moving the palm of the hand from the inside to the outside it turns or from the outside to the inside {2} to form the image of the taiji symbol (Figure 1).

[Steve James]

It's simple to explain, the requirement is one (part) moves all (parts) move, when moving the palm of the hand from the inside to the outside it turns or from the outside to the inside {2} to form the image of the taiji symbol (Figure 1).

Hmm, wanna start an argument about "jin" as a quality rather than a quantity. One could argue that moving a body part (ex., hand) to exert force along a simply vertical or horizontal path is using li (brute, raw, unrefined) strength. Whereas, moving along a spiral path is using jin (refined) strength. It can also be translated into technique.

It's often said that Yang style doesn't use spirals, but that's not true, (or even possible). A while back someone mentioned how spirals could be produced by simultaneous (circular) translation of horizontal and vertical movement.

[robert]

It's simple to explain, the requirement is one (part) moves all (parts) move, when moving the palm of the hand from the inside to the outside it turns or from the outside to the inside {2} to form the image of the taiji symbol (Figure 1).

Hmm, wanna start an argument about "jin" as a quality rather than a quantity. One could argue that moving a body part (ex., hand) to exert force along a simply vertical or horizontal path is using li (brute, raw, unrefined) strength. Whereas, moving along a spiral path is using jin (refined) strength. It can also be translated into technique.

It's often said that Yang style doesn't use spirals, but that's not true, (or even possible). A while back someone mentioned how spirals could be produced by simultaneous (circular) translation of horizontal and vertical movement.

And you're just going to ignore the requirement is one (part) moves all (parts) move?

[Steve James]

And you're just going to ignore the requirement is one (part) moves all (parts) move?

Not at all; the hand was just an example. The entire body could be considered the hand. And, just moving all the parts doesn't imply he creation of a spiral. My point was only that "jin" (strength, use of strength) was produced through a certain technique. And, that it ended up with an unambiguous way to explain jin --as opposed to li, the product of a particular method.

[windwalker]

Shen Jiazhen learned from the famous predecessors Yang Jianhou, and later from Yang Chengfu and Chen Fake, maybe this is why he made sense of Taiji principles to Chen Taijiquan in his book.

In Chen Style Taijiquan, in chapter one many of the requirements are listed, including this.

第三特点顺逆缠丝的螺旋运动
The Third Characteristic
Shun (Follow) and Ni (Oppose) Reeling Silk Spiral Movement


拳谱规定:
(1)“运劲如抽丝”;
(2)“运劲如缠丝”·
(3)“任君开展与收敛,千万不可离太极”;
(4)“妙手一运一太极,迹象化完归乌有”。

List of boxing rules:
(1) "Move jin (strength) like drawing silk";
(2) "Move jin (strength) like reeling silk".
(3) "Open and converge, must not be divorced from taijiquan";
(4) "With skill one move one taiji, the signs of transformation vanish."

从上列四项规定中可以看出,太极拳运动必须如抽丝的
形状。抽丝是旋转着抽出来的,因为直抽于旋转之中,自然
就形成一种螺旋的形状,这是曲直对立面的统一。至于缠丝
或抽丝劲都是指着这个意思。

As can be seen from the four rules listed above, taijiquan form movements must be like drawing silk. To draw silk is to rotate, because it is drawn out it rotates, naturally forming a spiral, which is the integration of the curved and straight. As for reeling silk or drawing silk jin (strength) it refers to this idea.

一、运劲如缠丝的实质
One
Move Jin (Strength) as if Reeling Silk



太极拳必须运劲如缠丝,或者说运劲如抽丝。

Taijiquan must move jin (strength) as if reeling silk, or move jin (strength) as if drawing silk.

这两种形
象的比方都是说,运劲的形象如螺旋。同时,这种螺旋又必
须走弧线,尤如子弹通过枪膛中的来福线后,当它运动于空
间时,既有螺旋形的自身旋转,又有抛物线型的运动路线。太
极拳的缠丝劲就要具有这种形象。

These two types of images are analogies, moving jin has the form of a spiral. At the same time, this spiral must move in an arc, as a bullet passes through the barrel of a gun, when it is moving in the air in between (the gun and the target), there are both spiral rotations and a parabolic arc. Taijiquan's reeling silk jin (strength) has this kind of form.

前面已经说明了运劲必须如缠丝的意义,那么在实际运
动中应如何运行呢?说来极平凡而简单,就是在一动全动的
要求下,动作时掌心由內往外翻或由外往內翻 {2} 使之形成太
极图的形象(如图1)。

As has been explained earlier, moving jin (strength) must be as if reeling silk, so in practice how should it work? It's simple to explain, the requirement is one (part) moves all (parts) move, when moving the palm of the hand from the inside to the outside it turns or from the outside to the inside {2} to form the image of the taiji symbol (Figure 1).

Silk reeling vs silk pulling

Very different ideas

Care to comment on the difference

[robert]

Silk reeling vs silk pulling

Very different ideas

Care to comment on the difference

I don't know what you're referring to. Here's a video of the making of silk thread.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJD1grsX0Dw

If you watch from 1:50 - 3:00 you'll see that the silk is drawn out of the cocoons onto a reel. Drawing silk or reeling silk refers to the process of making silk thread.抽丝, drawing silk can also be translated as spinning silk.

I agree with Shen Jiazhen that they are analogies and As has been explained earlier, moving jin (strength) must be as if reeling silk, so in practice how should it work? It's simple to explain, the requirement is one (part) moves all (parts) move, ...

What do you see as their difference?

[Steve James]

I don't do Chen style. I can say that there's a difference between pulling and reeling. Pulling can be one direction. Reeling means that direction is circular.

Imo, the "like pulling silk" implies the smoothness of the motion; "like reeling silk" implies that the motion is circular and continuous(ly smooth).

[windwalker]

Interesting

Silk pulling, refers to the idea of mind intent leading the qi , the body follows.

Most Yang style and derivatives use this method.


Silk reeling, more of a body method seen and used in chen style and others.

One method silk reeling cannot be seen but can be felt, the other method silk reeling is rather obvious can be seen.

Might help to explain the obvious difference between types of our generations between the two methods.

[robert]

The Taijiquan Classics (The Essentials of Playing Hands Part 2) say -

運劤如抽絲。蓄劤如張弓。發劤如放箭。行氣如九曲珠。無微不到。運劤如百鍊鋼。何堅不摧。形如搏兔之鵠。神如捕鼠之貓。曲中求直。蓄而後發。收即是放。

Move jin as if drawing silk, store up jin as if drawing a bow. Issue jin as if releasing an arrow. Circulate qi as if through a pearl with nine holes.

Here 抽絲, chousi, drawing silk/spinning silk refers to jin which is what Shen Jiazhen writes.

In YCF's manual there is -
邁步如貓行運勁如抽絲

Step like a cat and move jin like drawing silk/spinning silk.

Again the reference is to jin.

In terms of

One method cannot be seen but has felt, the other method is rather obvious can be seen.

Silk reeling, more of a body method seen and used in chen style and others.

Shen Jiazhen also wrote -

因为在缠的过程中伸缩其四
肢同样会产生一种螺旋的形象,所以拳论说,不论开展的大
动竹或紧凑的小动作,千万不可离开这种对立统一的太极劲。
統純熟之后,这种缠丝圈就越练越小,达到有圈不见圈的境

Because the winding/reeling process stretches the four limbs equally it produces the image of a spiral, so boxing theory says, no matter how large the movement or how compact, small the movements, do not depart from this antagonistic integrated taijiquan jin (strength). Become proficient at unifying then, train this kind of reeling silk smaller, until the circle is so small it can not be seen

FWIW.

[robert]

double post