Training both Chen style and Yang style

[cloudz]

Steve, your sentiment is probably accurate in that TJQ may suffer disagreement more than most.. hence that classic joke about the lightbulb.
there's some wisdom in that there joke, we should focus more on the lightbulb rather than how we screw it in.

In a recent thread I went into a couple of models for the waist/hip/kwa relationship that can be taken as and considered different enough to be kept distinct or considered that way. It took me a while, but I feel I've resolved it for myself and have some ideas about that.

In the end all that really matters is to be happy in your personal practice.

[Steve James]

Steve, your sentiment is probably accurate in that TJQ may suffer disagreement more than most.. hence that classic joke about the lightbulb.
there's some wisdom in that there joke, we should focus more on the lightbulb rather than how we screw it in.

In a recent thread I went into a couple of models for the waist/hip/kwa relationship that can be taken as and considered different enough to be kept distinct or considered that way. It took me a while, but I feel I've resolved it for myself and have some ideas about that.

In the end all that really matters is to be happy in your personal practice.

Imo, taichi is a fundamental principle of nature, and its methods of expression have almost infinite variations and applications. Perhaps because of that, it's hard to have universal agreement about what taijiquan is. And, there are always people saying what it's not and who's not doing it. Shucks, could be true; but, so what?

In the end all that really matters is to be happy in your personal practice.

Exactly. Nobody's practice hurts me. I can only learn something.

[GrahamB]

Robert: But how do you know that's "connected"? You can turn your waist and palm at the same time in a connected or unconnected way.

I can't guarantee it by watching a video, but that's what I was taught in xingyi and it seems to be what he is doing. SLT also writes about it in his xingyi manual. Your experience may be different

So if I move my palm and my waist at the same time, can I therefore say I am practicing Sung Lu Tang's method?

[robert]

So if I move my palm and my waist at the same time, can I therefore say I am practicing Sung Lu Tang's method?

If the movement is coordinated, not connected, I would say no. I suspect you know this; if you watch the video that shows how silk thread is made, when the reel is turned the cocoons move. The cocoons move because they are connected to the reel.

[Bao]

If the movement is coordinated, not connected, I would say no. I suspect you know this; if you watch the video that shows how silk thread is made, when the reel is turned the cocoons move. The cocoons move because they are connected to the reel.

I think you are correct that he showed connected movement. However, he does it all of the time as this is a part of his developed shenfa, it's just how he naturally moves. If you have connected movement you have it, it's nothing you need to switch on or remind yourself to do. You should have it naturally.

[wayne hansen]

There might be no correct tai chi
Or all might be correct
If that is true why have a teacher
Just read Lao Tzu and make up your own form
Don’t try to copy any moves u have seen that only hinders the Tao
Flow free be your own master
Don’t go on blogs shoot YouTube

[Doc Stier]

There might be no correct tai chi
Or all might be correct
If that is true why have a teacher
Just read Lao Tzu and make up your own form
Don’t try to copy any moves u have seen that only hinders the Tao
Flow free be your own master
Don’t go on blogs shoot YouTube

Sadly, that's exactly what has happened in many instances already. In the end, however, if everyone is right in simply doing their own thing, then nobody is really wrong, and if everyone is wrong, then nobody is really right.

Thus, if someone can validate the merits of whatever they are doing, regardless of what it looks like, by personally demonstrating clearly observable benefits and skills, then more power to them.

[Steve James]

Um, people have been pushing their personal tcc since as far back as I can remember. It's no different for karate, tkd, or other forms of gongfu. What counts are the results, but those depend on the individual's own goals. I recommended to the op that if he wanted to learn fight, find a school that fights and wins.

I call it a waste of time to end up saying "That's the wrong way because I was taught to do it is different." Shucks, who says you know where the individual wants to go or how they need to get there. I agree 100% that, from my pov, lots of people are wasting their time waving their arms; but, I'm not the tcc police, and don't know everything: so, I'd never tell them not to do it. If someone loves the taste of durian, let them eat it in peace. They won't die.

Since the 2000s, there's almost never been a tcc video someone didn't like or said was wack. There's no single standard everyone agrees on, and there are "standard bearers" and "gatekeepers" in the various styles and sub styles.

[marvin8]

Some have suggested that some of the clips show and use the same theories

Teacher Gao, ZhuangFei was a student of Wang Peisheng

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opXJ9gxVQmw

In that video, Wang Peisheng explains the body mechanics.

[At 1:16]
They said it best in the Taiji manual (Tai Chi Chuan Ching [Canon]). When the weight is on the left, the left hand is empty; when the weight is on the right, it drops into nothing.... At this point here [gestures], if put power into it…, that would be “double weighted....”

[At 2:26]
See? When this hand comes at me [extends right lead hand], there’s nothing there. Actually, in this movement, my weight shifts onto this leg [right lead]. And then, this [my right hand] becomes empty. And when this emptiness meets my opponent fullness… I lead him over here [left rear leg]. This, he’s full here too. When I counterattack, I lead with the empty hand [left] on the weighted leg side... And the right leg, I use the left hand and right leg…UP! ...Once that movement is finished, once your weight has shifted to your right leg, then the right hand becomes empty and you get this sort of movement [gestures].


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opXJ9gxVQmw&t=2m26s

Similar body mechanics (sequence) applied in a fight (in Rome), Torres vs Baez. Torres:

1. shifts weight to the left lead leg and extends left lead hand (high fives, Yang Cheng-fu's "setting the wrist") 2. then, left hand becomes empty, while shifting weight to the rear leg. This emptiness meets Baez's fullness. 3. while Baez's weight is on the back leg, Torres attacks by shifting weight to the front foot, while issuing left gazelle hook, KOing Baez:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQbLHJP1Oy4

[GrahamB]

So if I move my palm and my waist at the same time, can I therefore say I am practicing Sung Lu Tang's method?

If the movement is coordinated, not connected, I would say no. I suspect you know this; if you watch the video that shows how silk thread is made, when the reel is turned the cocoons move. The cocoons move because they are connected to the reel.

So, we can agree that just moving the palm and waist at the same time is not enough.

That's what I was getting at.

[robert]

So, we can agree that just moving the palm and waist at the same time is not enough.

That's what I was getting at.

Yes, guess I'm a bit thick

[GrahamB]

So, we can agree that just moving the palm and waist at the same time is not enough.

That's what I was getting at.

Yes, guess I'm a bit thick

No, not at all. What I was interested in was whether you could define what you mean by connected. I think we've just agreed that coordinated is not necessarily connected, but how does connected work in your view? What is the mechanism that connects a hand movement to a waist movement?

[cloudz]

The Peanut Gallery has spoken..
Talking in semi mysterious tao like riddles doesn't mask the resentment you seem to be holding.
In the immortal words of Princess Elsa "Let it go"..

It won't be for everyone and that's fine, that's as it should be.
The Orthodox ways are safe and sound, no need to fret.

[robert]

I think we've just agreed that coordinated is not necessarily connected, but how does connected work in your view? What is the mechanism that connects a hand movement to a waist movement?

In terms of substance, I'd say the soft tissue of the body. The Chinese use the character 筋, jin, which is translated as muscle/tendon or sinew. Fascia is popular, but I think that is just part of it. In terms of function the body has to be lightly stretched. In the Chen style requirements listed above is - relax/loosen the shoulders, sink the elbows. That connects the hands, wrists, and elbows to the torso. There's also bend the knees and loosen/relax the hips, relax the buttocks and round the crotch, and lightly press up the top of the head; these all create a light stretch through the body.

At a seminar April 7, 2016 YZD said -

Do not apply brute force. Brute force is stiff force. Force must be refined and skillful like a steel needle hidden in cotton. The strength is there, but not presented openly. It is implied in posture. There must be a quality of vibrancy, as opposed to listlessness.

This involves stretching out; the motion opens out. The secret is seen in the palm which is stretched out with the fingers bent but slightly open. The palm is both stretched and at the same time, relaxed. Beginners are usually either too relaxed or too stiff. This influences strength through the whole arm.

This quality (of being stretched and relaxed) permeates the whole body. This is so important – because this principle should be applied to wrist, forearm, shoulder…whole body! All shapes should have internal power, stretching power, stretching out. Eg. In Single Whip there is power channeled into the hooked fingers. (note: full flexion!)

Movements should be soft and even, but filled with internal stretching power. ...

I think it's interesting that this idea is captured in creating silk thread, in the reeling/drawing/pulling/spinning silk analogy. If there is slack in the silk when you turn the reel the cocoons won't move, the reel must be turned until all the slack is taken up in the silk. Once the slack is out of the silk then the reel and the cocoons are connected.

[GrahamB]

Hi Robert,

Yes I think what you're describing is the basics of silk reeling, so it belongs on this thread. Slight stretch, remove slack, feel the pull on the muscle/tendon channels. Add in the breathing and it's getting there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOibWoVMZDs