do babies have jin

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do babies have jin

Postby everything on Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:00 pm

why or why not? how or how not?
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Re: do babies have jin

Postby cloudz on Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:04 pm

yea, they have great jin
to me jin means force, but in our context (martial), it refers to some type of trained force rather than the force of raw strength.
I think that's a better term than brute strength or brute force..

I have a 2 year old boy as well as another older child, but it's something I've had the privilege to observe firsthand over the past couple years.
So yes of course they have force.

what's quite amazing is how ' pure' it is. I mean just unencumbered; you would almost think it's trained and refined and it's disproportionate too.
the taoists were onto something. when a baby grips and squeezes your finger it just feels so connected like it's coming from the centre. If you want to feel mind and chi.. feel a babies strength..

our physical development encumbers us, dulls the emanation of our force, hence why an art that softens us back up can be so productive in this respect.
Last edited by cloudz on Sun Sep 18, 2022 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: do babies have jin

Postby johnwang on Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:32 pm

If babies have Jin then why do we need to train MA for?

If the definition of Jin is body unification, babies don't have Jin.

Human body is like 3 separate springs.

- Without training, each spring compress by itself and release by itself.
- With training, all 3 springs can be compressed at the same time, and also released at the same time.
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: do babies have jin

Postby Steve James on Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:18 pm

Depends on what you mean by jin. If it's the fact they can hold themselves up by your fingers longer than you can hold yourself up, then ... I dunno. If it's internal strength (meaning not external muscular strength), they have more :). In fact, wait until you're 80, then compare. But, if you mean, a refined strength developed through training, then naw.
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Re: do babies have jin

Postby everything on Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:59 pm

cloudz wrote:

what's quite amazing is how ' pure' it is. I mean just unencumbered; you would almost think it's trained and refined and it's disproportionate too.
the taoists were onto something. when a baby grips and squeezes your finger it just feels so connected like it's coming from the centre. If you want to feel mind and chi.. feel a babies strength..

our physical development encumbers us, dulls the emanation of our force, hence why an art that softens us back up can be so productive in this respect.


this grip from babies is always interesting. adults just don't seem to have it. maybe with a lot of training, we can get close again.

it seems a bit contradictory, doesn't it? are we trying through "refinement" to get "natural" power? maybe a stick, adhere, follow
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Re: do babies have jin

Postby windwalker on Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:03 pm

everything wrote:
cloudz wrote:

what's quite amazing is how ' pure' it is. I mean just unencumbered; you would almost think it's trained and refined and it's disproportionate too.
the taoists were onto something. when a baby grips and squeezes your finger it just feels so connected like it's coming from the centre. If you want to feel mind and chi.. feel a babies strength..

our physical development encumbers us, dulls the emanation of our force, hence why an art that softens us back up can be so productive in this respect.


this grip from babies is always interesting. adults just don't seem to have it. maybe with a lot of training, we can get close again.

it seems a bit contradictory, doesn't it? are we trying through "refinement" to get "natural" power? maybe a stick, adhere, follow


:)

might help in understanding why

Palmar grasp reflex (or grasp reflex) is a primitive and involuntary reflex found in infants of humans, most primates, and domesticated felines.

When an object, such as an adult finger, is placed in an infant's palm, the infant's fingers reflexively grasp the object.

[1] Kittens and adult cats will grasp a finger placed in the palm (leather pad area) of the paw.

[1b] Placement of the object triggers a spinal reflex, resulting from stimulation of tendons in the palm, that gets transmitted through motor neurons in the median and ulnar sensory nerves.[2][3]

The reverse motion can be induced by stroking the back or side of the hand.

[3] A fetus exhibits the reflex in utero by 28 weeks into gestation (sometimes, as early as 16 weeks[4]),[5][6][7] and persists until development of rudimentary fine motor skills between two to six months of age.[1][8][9][10]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmar_grasp_reflex

wow 2 to 6 months before its gone :o

Instead of losing it, as some suggest perhaps it's no longer needed..
As a reflexive action..
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: do babies have jin

Postby everything on Sun Sep 18, 2022 7:54 pm

sounds like that explains the grasp, but not the "sticking"
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Re: do babies have jin

Postby jbb73 on Sun Sep 18, 2022 11:33 pm

What's jin?

Some people understand jin as a kind of natural alignment and force, unhindered by restrictions of education and socialization.
In this view, we "simply" have to remove what was added to us when we grew up. This view fits with statements in the Daodejing and for example Bruce Lee's "at the beginning a punch is only a punch, then a punch is more than a punch, and at the end the punch is again simply a punch".

Others understand jin as a kind of cultivated force. In that view we have to remove also the bodily restrictions of education and socialization - but then we have to establish a "second nature", which fits also with the principles of the Daodejing or Yin and Yang, but which must be hardly gained and be cultivated.

For me the second view is the essential view with regards to "traditional/internal" Chineses Martial Arts.
(Which says for itself nothing about practicability for "the street and real fights".)

Which means: No, babys don't have jin in the second sense, but in the first sense.
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Re: do babies have jin

Postby cloudz on Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:10 am

johnwang wrote:If babies have Jin then why do we need to train MA for?

If the definition of Jin is body unification, babies don't have Jin.

Human body is like 3 separate springs.

- Without training, each spring compress by itself and release by itself.
- With training, all 3 springs can be compressed at the same time, and also released at the same time.


well, no; I didn't really mean it literally John, as in trained martial force.
they can't punch or kick and use jin to fight..

but my point is they have force. it is untrained in the martial sense.
the point I was making is in how they are able to express that force, and how that feels compared to an average adult.

Hope my point is a little clearer.

thanks
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: do babies have jin

Postby cloudz on Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:13 am

By the way Jin is simply force.

body unification would produce a certain quality of force.

Honestly guys Jin simply means force; in TCMA there are tons of descriptions relating to it.
but in the most simplistic terms jin equals a trained type of force (quality/ qualities of force) or skill related to force and that's all. Beyond that it requires specification.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: do babies have jin

Postby cloudz on Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:20 am

jbb73 wrote:What's jin?

Some people understand jin as a kind of natural alignment and force, unhindered by restrictions of education and socialization.
In this view, we "simply" have to remove what was added to us when we grew up. This view fits with statements in the Daodejing and for example Bruce Lee's "at the beginning a punch is only a punch, then a punch is more than a punch, and at the end the punch is again simply a punch".

Others understand jin as a kind of cultivated force. In that view we have to remove also the bodily restrictions of education and socialization - but then we have to establish a "second nature", which fits also with the principles of the Daodejing or Yin and Yang, but which must be hardly gained and be cultivated.

For me the second view is the essential view with regards to "traditional/internal" Chineses Martial Arts.
(Which says for itself nothing about practicability for "the street and real fights".)

Which means: No, babys don't have jin in the second sense, but in the first sense.


jin has a specific literal meaning...As well, It implies a context (martial trained/ trained). Then it has a ton and more specific types of meaning that require specification.
the way we can organise our bodies and produce types of force are quite a few.. but in the end force is still force..
simply put.

it was my hope this wouldn't need so much spelling out; your explanation is a good one, it goes to the essence of it.

It was the nature of the question in the first place; why would you attribute a martially trained force to a baby ?
you wouldn't. But, it can certainly feel or look like one.. at times.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:48 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: do babies have jin

Postby cloudz on Mon Sep 19, 2022 12:30 am

windwalker

that information is useful to know. I guess that explains it - it really does feel that it's coming from a deeper place and is connected to a deeper place.

I guess if it's something we lose (the instinctual reflex) - Eastern martial arts do seek a way to get it back through repetitive training using 'the centre" combined with concepts like sung.

watching a toddler move and crawl and so on (use force) they can be more unified and 'whole body' over many adults. Something that often needs relearning or re patterning. It's also accepted that we gain around 80% of our motor control by the age of around 5.
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Re: do babies have jin

Postby Bao on Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:20 am

"The Daoists were onto something"

Teacher Hu addressed small children talking to us in a small group at night, saying something like this: "Look how they have all of the energy in the world, they can move and jump around and never get tired. But later they are told to sit still in benches, not move and only listen. So they are destroyed by society. This is the kind of movements we strive to regain when we practice Tai Chi Chuan."

This was what he thought that Tai Chi Chuan and older daoist exercises were designed to do. It's funny how societies for more than 2000 years destroyed children in the same way as today, and how Daoists were aware about this problem.

After speaking what I re-called above, he demonstrated a couple of walking exercises and how "jumpy" you became after practicing them, hopping as he walked. Mr Hu was very short, about 1.60-1.65m tall, also with a typical Chinese body type with short legs and longer trunk. But hell, his walk was fast. He walked so fast that you almost had to run to keep up with him.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: do babies have jin

Postby everything on Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:27 am

one of my kids was working as a camp counselor. for fun, he'd tell the kids to do things like "Asian squat" and other "feats of mobility" that are difficult for adults with good mobility ruined over time by that prolonged sitting. they could do them all so effortlessly. some of what we're doing (never mind "internal" whatever) does seem to be trying to re-gain those abilities.
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Re: do babies have jin

Postby Steve James on Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:49 am

After my spine operation, I had to relearn walking. The process gave me the time to think about what I did as a child. For example, walking on the edge of curbs, avoiding cracks in the sidewalk, and skipping along wasn't just fun; it was training. Unfortunately, we are trained out of doing those things, and can eventually lose them.

Anyway, "like a child" is an old CMC/ZMQ precept he talked and wrote about. It's not their strength, it's the relaxed way they exert it that is extraordinary. We know "why" mammalian babies cling to their parents, especially if they live in trees. I'm not sure we lose the reflex. We will almost always grab when we fear falling. Well, drunks are a counter example; they often don't grab, but just fall. Maybe it's that relaxation of the reflex that often allows them to survive falls that would injure an unimpaired adult.:) We've all heard of toddlers falling many stories and surviving. Of course, not tensing up is something that most adults will have to train -to reproduce instinctively or voluntarily. Another fancy word infants seem to exhibit is "sung."
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