Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Postby Mrwawa on Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:31 am

Hi all,

I am curious about the origin of silk reeling exercises in chen style taijiquan. I have read references made to Chen xiaowang being the originator, but as Feng zhiqiang also practiced the silk reeling Qigong, it seems like it would have passed from FZQ to CXW. Really just academic, I'm just curious. Thanks for any information.
Mrwawa
Santi
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:03 am

Re: Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Postby jbb73 on Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:36 am

Had this many times over ten years here :-)

You shouldn't confuse the isolated silk reeling exercises of CXW systematized in the late 80s/early 90s with silk reeling practice in Chen Taijiquan in general.

One theory is, that the origin of the silk reeling i. e. winding goes back to the use of the spear, what makes at least some sense to me.
jbb73
Mingjing
 
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:29 pm

Re: Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Postby Bao on Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:47 am

In my article "Musings on “Silk Reeling” and Buddhism in Chen style Tai Chi Chuan" I've written a lot about the name "silk reeling", and the implications of silk trading around the Chen village.

However, my only real conclusions about the history of the exercises is that the name has Buddhist origin and that the exercises were derived directly from local Shaolin practice.

"...the movements of what is taught today in Chen Tai Chi as silk-reeling exercises is identical to what is taught as Chanyuangong 禅圆功 in Shaolin arts. Mostly, this exercise is connected to “softer” or more internal Shaolin arts, as Rouquan (Soft fist/boxing). Sal Canzonieri, who has studied the links between Shaolin arts and Chen Tai Chi Chuan kindly showed me the simple movements, or drills, of Chanyuangong. All of them are remarkable close to Tai Chi Chuan movements and Chen silk reeling drills. In my own opinion, it’s absolutely clear that these much earlier developed drills have a very strong connection to both silk-reeling exercises and Tai Chi practice in general. (For more information about the relationships between Shaolin arts and Tai Chi Chuan, read Mr. Canzonieri’s articles or take a look at his book: The Hidden History of the Chinese Internal Martial Arts )"


Chen xiaowang might have used these exercises to model his own standard, but Feng Zhiqiang probably knew the old set, either the whole set or partially. I would believe that the Chen practitioners already had them before their generation. But that is pure speculation.

Full article:
https://taichithoughts.wordpress.com/20 ... chi-chuan/

jbb73 wrote:One theory is, that the origin of the silk reeling i. e. winding goes back to the use of the spear, what makes at least some sense to me.


The Chanyuangong is designed so it can be practiced with spear or staff. So yes, it probably developed from weapons drills practice.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Postby Mrwawa on Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:05 am

Thanks for the replies, Bao and jbb73. Not sure how I have missed all that. Bao, what you wrote makes sense to me.
Mrwawa
Santi
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:03 am

Re: Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Postby cloudz on Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:21 am

we may as well also ask

what is the origin of cloud hands
what is the origin of BGZ teacups exercise

are they being practiced with neigong or just weigong, or both ?
qigong is a newer term for neigong

do they have anything to do with older sets of tao yin, possibly,
was the sun shining before the Shaolin temple was built?

I know, I know, that's waaay too many questions.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Regards
George

London UK
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 3393
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Postby robert on Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:50 am

Silk reeling exercises seem to be fairly old. Chen Xin describes one in his book. HJS refers to Chen Fake showing him a seated SRE.

This kind of progress is rooted in one word, “practice.” Gu Liuxin said, “Master Chen continued to practice thirty routines a day during the dozens of years he was in Beijing.'’ Though I did not hear about this directly from my master, I personally observed that every time he moved to a new residence, there would be several lines of broken bricks on the floor in a short while. Even when sitting, he would cross his hands and rotate them. He told me to do the same. At the time, I did not understand what this was supposed to achieve. Later on, I realized that this practice was used to be aware of the silk reeling.

From Chen Style Practical Method, Volume One: Theory.

Shen Jiazhen and Gu Liuxin describe one in their book Chen Style Taijiquan that has this illustration.

Image

Here's what CXW has said about his SREs.

Q. Chen Taijiquan has evolved over the course of many generations with significant changes at certain times. A few examples that immediately spring to mind are Chen Changxin’s development of the Laojia routines and later Chen Fake’s creation of the New Frame. And of course, like any human pursuit there are bound to be changes in training methods etc in line with the realisation of different individuals. In recent times we have seen the introduction of practice methods such as silk exercises and short forms. Can you tell us something about how this has come about?

Chen Xiaowang (CXW): In the past Laojia was the jibengong (basic training) of Chen Taijiquan and everything started with Laojia Yilu. [As part of an official programme documenting China’s different martial arts] I was asked to present a set of jibengong (basic exercises) characteristic of the system. At first I didn’t want to do it, and explained we already have a jibengong and that is the Laojia. Despite my protests I was tasked to do it by my superiors. In the context of their project [which involved producing books about each of the different martial systems] they said that the Laojia was too long to be considered as a basic training method. They gave the example of Changquan (Long Boxing) where learners first learn the stretches, the punches, the kicks etc... before they put them together into a routine. That gave me something to work on but it still took some effort, but having a point of reference helped.

I put some thought into it and set about compiling something. It occurred to me then that I needed to work out how best to show the movement rules and principles of our system. In 1980 the set was compiled and in 1982 it was published in Wulin magazine. I don’t think that it would be easy to find a copy of the magazine now. In 1984 [the reeling silk exercises] were officially published as Chen Taijiquan’s jibengong in the book Taijiquan Handed Down Through Generations published by People’s Sport Publications. This was the first time that zhan zhuang, front reeling silk, side reeling silk etc.. were formally recorded.


https://www.chentaijiquangb.com/10-questions-blog/in-conversation-with-chen-xiaowang

This doesn't answer your question, but provides more information. I don't know when FZQ created his SR set.
Last edited by robert on Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Wuji
 
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:59 am

Just another version of the Tien Gan
I have a set from the Wu style that I do that is very similar
Also the Yang noi gung
When I trained with CZW in 88 he wanted to know where I learnt Chen before because of how I did the silk reeling
In fact he got his translator to ask me3 times
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5661
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Postby GrahamB on Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:05 pm

None of this quite makes sense. There's CXW saying he invented the exercises in 1980s, but there's one in a book by Shen JiaZhen Gu LiuXin from 1963. Robert says there's one in Chen Xin's book, which is much earlier.

Maybe CXW is talking about his silk reeling exercises, as opposed to the whole idea of silk reeling exercises.

And obviously, the concept of silk reeling being in the form is even older.
Last edited by GrahamB on Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
One does not simply post on RSF.
The Tai Chi Notebook
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 13554
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Postby Steve James on Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:34 pm

Obviously :), silk reeling preceded Chen style, unless they invented reeling silk. When, in fact, did that start? Was Chen village near to or connected with the silk industry? It stands to reason, imo, that silk reelers invented/developed it. Whoever didn't do it didn't invent it.

I know. It's not helpful; it's just a direction for research.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 21137
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Postby robert on Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:51 pm

GrahamB wrote:None of this quite makes sense. There's CXW saying he invented the exercises in 1980s, but there's one in a book by Shen JiaZhen Gu LiuXin from 1963. Robert says there's one in Chen Xin's book, which is much earlier.

Maybe CXW is talking about his silk reeling exercises, as opposed to the whole idea of silk reeling exercises.

And obviously, the concept of silk reeling being in the form is even older.

What CXW says is that he was asked to create a set of exercises to help people learn taijiquan.

[As part of an official programme documenting China’s different martial arts] I was asked to present a set of jibengong (basic exercises) characteristic of the system. At first I didn’t want to do it, and explained we already have a jibengong and that is the Laojia. Despite my protests I was tasked to do it by my superiors. In the context of their project [which involved producing books about each of the different martial systems] they said that the Laojia was too long to be considered as a basic training method. They gave the example of Changquan (Long Boxing) where learners first learn the stretches, the punches, the kicks etc... before they put them together into a routine. That gave me something to work on but it still took some effort, but having a point of reference helped.


I don't see anywhere in what I quoted above that CXW says he invented silk reeling. What CXW did was put together a set of SREs to teach people the basic body mechanics of taijiquan. CXW put together a new training system for Chen taijiquan. Personally I like it. Taijiquan training started to change with YCF. It went from individual instruction to class instruction and people started to travel around and do seminars. HJS writes about training with Chen Fake and he taught each student individually. If a person is getting weekly individual instruction from a good teacher I think learning the form is fine, but if a person is doing seminars once or twice a year then learning standing and then SREs and then the form I think is much more practical. My opinion.

One thing I like about xingyi is their training system. It's not uncommon to start with standing and then go to five element fists. Learning one fist at a time is much more simple than learning a taiji form.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Wuji
 
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Postby Bao on Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:08 pm

[As part of an official programme documenting China’s different martial arts] I was asked to present a set of jibengong (basic exercises) characteristic of the system. At first I didn’t want to do it, and explained we already have a jibengong and that is the Laojia. Despite my protests I was tasked to do it by my superiors


CXW was asked by the local government to create a simplified exercise with simplified body mechanics to teach as a standard. Thus many principles about body movement found in other Tai Chi styles and lineages, as well in other IMA, is not found in Village Chen style. Some tai chi people also believe that they overemphasize dantian movements too early and by this they lack the correct foundation and whole body movement coordinated from the feet. I am not taking all Chen style into account.

CXW adapted the term from Chen Xin's book without understanding that Chen Xin meant a principle found in ALL Internal styles or IMA. However as Robert shows, he tells different stories at different times.


Steve James wrote:Obviously :) When, in fact, did that start? Was Chen village near to or connected with the silk industry? It stands to reason, imo, that silk reelers invented/developed it. Whoever didn't do it didn't invent it.

I know. It's not helpful; it's just a direction for research.


An explanation of the silk trade around Chen village is mentioned in the article above. You also have an explanation of the name "Zhouzi" or "silk-pulling"

You also have more interesting facts in the article about the Silk God mentioned as source there:

"In medieval China this ancient Indian dhyāna-master, transmitter of the Dharma-treasury, and author of the seminal Awakening of Faith (Dasheng qixin lun 大乘起信論), was also represented as an immanent deity who specialized in rituals for
promoting silk production."


So you see that personal cultivation and silk rituals were intimately connected in China through Buddhism since a very long time ago.
Last edited by Bao on Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Postby robert on Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:17 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Just another version of the Tien Gan
I have a set from the Wu style that I do that is very similar
Also the Yang noi gung

I agree. I learned tian gan as part of my xingyi training. In bagua I learned the tea cup exercise, windmill arms, piercing palms and so on. These are silk reeling exercises as well. When I was first learning taiji I studied with BK Frantzis and he had us learn a couple qigongs before we learned the Wu style short form. Simple exercises to learn loose, relaxed, connected movement. HXX's five loosening exercises and so on.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Wuji
 
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Postby Mrwawa on Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:31 pm

This is why I posted my original question. I have seen it referenced on multiply occasions that CXW created, invented, or standardized the Chen style silk reeling exercises. This just doesn't seem very plausible, as FZQ has them as well and they are essentially the same as the Chen Village set, imo.
Mrwawa
Santi
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:03 am

Re: Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Postby robert on Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:41 pm

Mrwawa wrote:This is why I posted my original question. I have seen it referenced on multiply occasions that CXW created, invented, or standardized the Chen style silk reeling exercises. This just doesn't seem very plausible, as FZQ has them as well and they are essentially the same as the Chen Village set, imo.

What do you mean by the Chen Village set? It seems like there are various sets in Chen Village. CXW has a set, CZL, WXA, and ZTC. You can find them on YT. The SREs in Chen Village are designed to teach the movement principles and aren't as extensive as FZQ's. FZQ's are designed to work every joint in the body and forms a stand alone qigong set. I learned FZQ's SREs first and learned CXW's set later.
Last edited by robert on Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Wuji
 
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

Postby Mrwawa on Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:00 pm

Robert,

Sorry about the lack of clarity. I was focused on CXW's, and am only rudimentarily familiar with any other sets from Chen Village. I know that CXW and FZQ worked together quite a bit, and so was just trying to figure out who taught who, as they are very similar.
Mrwawa
Santi
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:03 am

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Pennykid and 24 guests