Origins of silk reeling Qigong in Chen style taijiquan

[charles]

Why is everybody blaming a teacher they don’t know

I studied with two of his teachers in the mid '90's in their home and do know them. One of them was my first Chen teacher.

[Bob]

Thank you Charles for the hun yuan reference

[wayne hansen]

I don’t quite get your point
I was talking about people who don’t know who the teachers are drawing conclusions from what a seemingly confused individual is saying

[everything]

Why is it so hard to teach?

First you need to be a decent person to begin with. That will mean wildly different things for many different people. Staying out of trouble and being respectful of others are good signs imo. Not holding extremist views, nor judging people in a shallow way.

There are many good baseball, basketball and singing coaches. The outcome of correct teaching is easy to observe. You get good at your sport. Hit the ball harder or score points easier or play your position better. In singing, your voice sounds better according to the genre and style you're learning. Or it sounds closer to someone you want to imitate. You have better control.

So what is the goal of one's training?

1) get better at fighting - competitions, types of sparring, 'on the streets cliche', bouncing / security, military drills that result in better weapon handling and mobility

2) increased health and well being - feeling more vital and clear headed, balanced emotions, healing from trauma, getting sick less often, helping with lifestyle changes aka abstaining from drugs, feeling more ready to take on life and it's challenges, sense of ease and not constant struggle, increase in love and building healthy relationships that pour back into you, increased stability

3) get more wisdom - what's the place of a single human on this Earth, reflecting one's attitude and stance on all things, cultivation of humility respect and love, being able to discern right from wrong action, get insight into why the world and the existence on it is the way it is, continuously growing as a person, reducing personal biases to best of one's ability, how to live a peaceful prosperous life without getting into mischief

4) esoteric / psychic abilities - knowledge about their wise and proper usage so as not to harm yourself and others, satisfying one's curiosity, discerning the reasons why one would certain skills in the first place

5) being better equipped for one's own journey of growth and personal development in all aspects

So if you want to know if you have a good teacher, you need some kind of metrics to measure your progress. Else you might end up chasing dragons and wasting a lot of time and effort. Not in a way that your Kung Fu will suck, but just in general.

Cannot really tell how many topics are going on here, but this is a great post imho.

A corollary question is what makes a great student?

That’s really the part we can control individually.

So maybe there is too much thought/talk on the teacher part.

maybe due to the rarity of “internal”. It’s easy to find a music teacher so when we give the music and sports analogies, maybe they don’t apply so easily. I like @appledog’s term Disney magic. But it’s rare to find someone actually impressive, and it’s easy to think “oh this person has ‘it’” but it turns out to be untrue. Probably why many fall back on “well I understand this, mechanically” and maybe a lot of people give up Or get bored.

[everything]

For this kind of learning question, I’d recommend watching the video by /
Sal Khan (Khan Academy) on “learning for mastery”.

TL;DW:

Our systems are set up for a module in a compressed time so only some students can “learn”, say, organic chemistry. But if you set up individualized instruction (including the time component), a lot more people can gain mastery. This is more possible now due to “AI” and online learning that can adapt to the individual.

Sure that doesn’t fully apply to IMA, but the philosophy still applies (to all subjects).

Another excellent class is Learning How to Learn on Coursera.

Regardless how good you think you’ve been at learning, it will still help. Everyone has room for improvement.

[D_Glenn]

The SRE are too simple and people without the practical knowledge of moving their abdomen have added in all sorts of junk.

I agree that lots of people have added all sorts of irrelevant junk. I don't agree that "silk reeling exercises" are too simple. If they are, one is doing them wrong. They are an encyclopedia of how the body is used in Chen Taijiquan, just as forms are.

Haha Definitely not simple in what they are achieving. Sort of the wrong word. Simple in terms of just 1 movement in isolation and a person who doesn’t know what they’re doing is going to naturally want to add things. Sort of like a food recipe that only calls out for is salt. People are going to want to add more spices and seasonings.

I would say the SRE are, demonstrating, not necessarily achieving, an extremely high level of skill.
My Bagua teacher was talking about how we’re achieving the same thing as TJQ in our practice and he had me place my palm on the front of his abdomen and then did the silk reeling with his right arm. Nine years later Chen Xiao Wang had me do the exact same thing. Both of them have such a strong connection between arm and Dantian that it tangibly feels like there’s a finger inside their abdomen that presses into your palm and then it starts drawing the shape of a circle on your palm that coincides and syncs up perfectly with the movement of their arm. Moving both Clockwise and then counterclockwise. It’s so creepy though. I felt it from two people but you still pull your palm away in revulsion. But curiosity makes you put it back. My Bagua teacher essentially said the same thing as CXW which is that it’s the forms where you’re moving all your limbs, but keeping the intention shifting from one arm to the other, where you’re going to make the most proper development. And doing the SRE are more just a test of your progress. I occasionally test myself while doing the SRE but only briefly because I don’t want to get all caught up in increasing the symptom of good Dantian control. I instead want to keep building up what’s creating it.


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[twocircles13]

@appledog Thanks for sharing your situation. Now, I have different thoughts for you.

My teacher taught me one of the moves from Hunyuan qigong...he gave me a type of intention to think of during the exercise, breathe in through this point, fire shoots out from that point, etc. -- So, two weeks later I ask him a question about the move and he says I am doing it completely wrong and teaches me another way. he said he never taught me the first way.

Your situation reminded me of several stories and experiences. I'll only tell one that may help. I will put a big, IIRC disclaimer in front of it. The gist is correct some of the details and exact wordings may be off a bit. I have not told this story for a couple of decades.

Chen Zhonghua went to Jinan for university. When he got there, he made inquiries after martial arts in the city. Several people suggested that he check out "The old man in the park that no one can beat." The day he arrived, there happened to be a Japanese delegation visiting. They were searching out students of Chen Fake to ascertain the condition of Chen Taijiquan in China. They were interviewing, quizzing, and getting demonstrations from Hong Junsheng. It meant for Zhonghua was that he had to wait until they left to talk to Master Hong.

When the delegation left, Zhonghua ran after and caught up to Master Hong. He asked, "Can you teach me?" Hong said, "I cannot teach you anything. The question is whether or not you can learn." Master Hong had been classically trained as a scholar, so he had specific notions about education that modern people find difficult to understand. "May I study with your class?" Zhonghua asked. "I can't keep you from doing whatever you want to do." replied Hong. Hong then told him what time class started but said that people arrive early.

The next morning, Zhonghua arrived early. Hong took him to a nearby corner of the park and showed him what Zhonghua would learn later was the positive circle. "Do this," said Hong. So everyday Zhonghua would come to his little corner and practice the positive circle for the two hours of the class and if some lingered longer until the teacher left.

After seven months...
Hong approached Zhonghua one morning. "You, stupid boy! Why do you come here and do this thing every morning? Why don't you go do something else? What are you doing anyway?" To which Zhonghua replied demonstrating, "I'm doing the exercise you told me to do." Hong retorted, "I never told you to do that!" After looking at him a minute, Hong said, "Maybe you have enough intelligence to do this," and showed him the negative circle.

After five more months...
Hong walked over to Zhonghua and said, "You have to be the stupidest boy I have ever met. It's clear you cannot learn anything from me. Go over there with those people," pointing to the class, "and see if you can learn something from them."

I had assumed that Chen Zhonghua had become proficient in the circles in the year he practiced. But with one telling, a student asked if he had mastered the circles during that time. Chen Zhonghua chuckled and said, "Mastered? No. Become proficient? Probably not. Laid a foundation? Yes. Trained my mind and body to practice diligently? Yes. The main thing practicing circles for a year got me was entry to the class, to corrections, to push-hands partners, to feeling the movements in other people, to direct instruction from Hong and his senior students."

Many of the practices of a classical Chinese (Confucian) education may seen odd to us. We are used to positive feedback. When we encounter negative feedback, we are often taken aback and confused. However, any kind of feedback is usually a sign that you are making progress. Remember also that negative feedback can reinforce behavior as strongly as positive.

My problem is easy enough to understand, I don't think it is my teachers, it is just me. My teacher told me, 'you must do this movement 10,000 times before you will understand it' so, that has been my goal. The problem is I only did it 5,000 times. Sure, I got some results, but looking back I surely cannot blame anyone but myself. I am sure I will feel better in another six months of training.

As a learner I am always interested in learning new stuff....F

The one fear, perhaps irrational fear I have, is that I am doing one little thing wrong which will spoil everything. ....

There's a Chinese adage, "When the student is ready, the teacher will appear."

Note that it does not say, "When the student is ready, the art he wants to study will become available to him."

One thing you can do to get yourself ready is to go through @Quigga's fairly exhaustive list of goals.

So what is the goal of one's training?

1) get better at fighting - competitions, types of sparring, 'on the streets cliche', bouncing / security, military drills that result in better weapon handling and mobility

2) increased health and well being - feeling more vital and clear headed, balanced emotions, healing from trauma, getting sick less often, helping with lifestyle changes aka abstaining from drugs, feeling more ready to take on life and it's challenges, sense of ease and not constant struggle, increase in love and building healthy relationships that pour back into you, increased stability

3) get more wisdom - what's the place of a single human on this Earth, reflecting one's attitude and stance on all things, cultivation of humility respect and love, being able to discern right from wrong action, get insight into why the world and the existence on it is the way it is, continuously growing as a person, reducing personal biases to best of one's ability, how to live a peaceful prosperous life without getting into mischief

4) esoteric / psychic abilities - knowledge about their wise and proper usage so as not to harm yourself and others, satisfying one's curiosity, discerning the reasons why one would certain skills in the first place

5) being better equipped for one's own journey of growth and personal development in all aspects

So if you want to know if you have a good teacher, you need some kind of metrics to measure your progress. Else you might end up chasing dragons and wasting a lot of time and effort. Not in a way that your Kung Fu will suck, but just in general.

Choose a primary and a couple of secondary destinations. If you don't know where you are going, how will you know when you get there much less if something will take you there?

One of my Wutan teachers compared each martial art to a building. Some buildings are taller with higher levels that other buildings. He said, a lot of people waste time running up a story or two in one building, then running down and running to another building running up a story or two in that building and so on. They never learn that even if they are in a fairly low building, when one gets close to the top, there are bridges to neighboring buildings. If you stick with one art and let it take you as far as it can, there will soften be a transfer point to another art or branch that will take you further.

When I met Chen Zhonghua, I could have cared less about what lineage, or even what art he was practicing, or any of that peripheral stuff. He had a skill set that would help me move toward my destination, and he was willing and able to teach me. Had he told me he was teaching something call tiddlywink boxing, I would have been all in.

EDIT: [ I should add when I met Chen Zhonghua I had been practicing Taijiquan and other Chinese martial arts for over 13 years. I was confident in what I had learned. I was pretty good in push hands competition. I had even judged at some regional competitions.

In one evening, I realized that all I had learned previously was as a single drop compared to an ocean that had opened up to me. Chen Zhonghua was able to connect with my mind and body in ways that I had not experienced with other teachers. What I learned resonated with me, so I improved over the course of a single weekend. He had three students with him. Each of whom was outstanding and generous with all they had learned. They all had mad skills. I was not even in their league in form or push hands.

But, I say this not about my decision. When looking at a teacher, his or her knowledge and skills are important. The ability to teach and convey information and skills are also important. I think it is also key to see what kind of students he or she attracts. What have they learned and what skills have they developed? Are those this aligned with your destinations?]

So, if you trust your teacher, then trust your teacher. If you don't trust your teacher, why are you studying with them? Although, I would like to hear how a student of He Binquan came to reside in Taiwan.

[Quigga]

Charles, 'watch me and move as I move; here's what I feel, here's how I got that feeling' - that's it.

I included singing because it has similar difficulties in being taught as has Tai Chi.

Wayne, only knowing what you can practice in a single day seems pretty stupid to me. I don't have to practice everything in a single day. Mark Rasmus said that the methods he has to use for his own progress are only a handful right now. But to allow him to reach every student and pick them up where they are, he has to know a loooot more.

[Quigga]

D_Glenn, big thanks for all your contributions over the years.

Also, Charles, not being careful about your teacher's morals is very bad advice. Leaves you open to all sorts of exploitation and abuse.

[Doc Stier]

...only knowing what you can practice in a single day seems pretty stupid to me. I don't have to practice everything in a single day.

Agreed. Over the span of the past 62 years time, I have learned far more training material than I could possibly practice in one day. As such, I normally practice basic body methods, standing methods, and breathwork methods daily, but divide up the various form sets and drills for practice on different days in order to regularly train the entire curriculum each week.

Since each of the three IMA styles I practice and teach incorporate the same core concepts and foundation principles, the practice of each style with a focus on the quality of those factors essentially maintains the overall quality of them all. ymmv

[charles]

Also, Charles, not being careful about your teacher's morals is very bad advice. Leaves you open to all sorts of exploitation and abuse.

I agree.

However, my statement was intended to suggest that being moral/ethical is not necessarily a prerequisite to being an effective teacher. A immoral teacher can be an effective teacher just as a moral teacher can be.

[Quigga]

Everything : thanks. What makes a great student?

1) willingness to question their own beliefs
2) courage to question the teacher's beliefs
3) ability to reflect upon being shown where one might be lacking or unknowing
4) ability to stay out of harms way for their own sake, others sake and the teachers sake
5) ability to show some sort of appreciation for the teachings - be it monetary or otherwise
6) being able to stay sober when required
7) willingness to spend lots of time in solo practice
8) being able to endure pain and hardship
9) communicating to the teacher what exactly it is they wish to practice, or if they're just around to have a good time during class, which is fine too
10) a generally peaceful demeanor and unwillingness to harm others unless neccessary
11) being able to sustain a healthy life themselves
12) being open about personal struggles, depending on the aim of practice
13) being smart is an advantage, but not required if one just diligently sticks to simple principles
14) being able to evaluate a teacher's character and personality based upon their own life experience
15) resulting from 14, trusting their teacher; especially in times of personal turmoil where orientation might have been lost
16) ability to motivate themselves
17) not harm the teacher's wellbeing, reputation and livelihood
18) if asked to, being able to keep secrets
19) being self-sufficient in reflecting upon ideas gathered priorly with only meager, but precisely aimed input
20) willingness to learn, grow, change, adapt
21) seeing the humor in life and being able to laugh
22) being able to reconciliate when quarrels have occured
23) being emotionally aware and able to regulate on that level themselves
24) not being severely mentally ill, nor be an active hard drug user; tho there are obviously levels to both of these
25) being able to show up to class on time
26) listening to instructions and not throwing in the towel prematurely - but only if the teacher exemplifies the qualities the student seeks, and if the teacher has demonstrated these and continues to do so
27) being open to new ideas; especially not being overtly dogmatic or extremist
28) the first impulse not being to blame others when things go wrong in life - they always do to some degree sooner or later - but seeing where oneself is lacking
29) being able to practice grace towards oneself when negative things happen that are outside of ones control
30) respecting the neighborhood, nature and elderly, as well as family - according to circumstances, there are very complicated situations; abuse is abuse
31) not trying to subvert or take over the teachers classes
32) when entrusted with a task, execute it carefully
33) not being a pushover
34) being able to communicate in a shared language
35) willingness to contribute to society and not leach off of it
36) not being racist, sexist or otherwise shallowly hate people
37) not be manipulative
38) have normal human flaws
39) be human
40) be
41) ...
42) answer

I think that's enough for now

[Quigga]

Charles - if you are only talking about a skill - maybe yes. But I doubt that the heart of a topic will be transmitted properly by an arse. Nor do I want people who think they're good teachers themselves produce more arseholes than required. Teaching something intensely always imparts part of the teacher's character onto the student. It's not required to be a goody two shoes, save the world everywhere you go, be way too sweet and pushoverly, peoplepleaser like guy. Some actions people do can simply be very hard to impossible to justify. Not that it's anyone's job to actively punish them. But I'm quite happy that I don't have to be acquainted with every person there is.

[Quigga]

That being said - you can't learn martial arts without being beaten.

[Quigga]

I forgot to add: being respectful of training partners on all levels and not hurting them more than is appropriate for the situation!