zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby origami_itto on Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:41 am

marvin8 wrote:
windwalker wrote:You consistently use Chinese words attributing them with other meanings trying to fit them into your narrative.

Based on ?

You go first, since you repeated it. Why not quote and discuss in your own words why "they are not even similar," without being "foggy and condescending?"


Do you understand the concept of jargon?

Or how a log can be a piece of wood or a record of activity?

If you find it helpful, by all means go for it. But in my humble opinion, looking at these clips and claiming they represent anything approaching taijiquan skills is obviously perfectly accurate and reflects a deep and nuanced understanding of the matters being discussed.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby marvin8 on Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:38 am

origami_itto wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
windwalker wrote:You consistently use Chinese words attributing them with other meanings trying to fit them into your narrative.

Based on ?

You go first, since you repeated it. Why not quote and discuss in your own words why "they are not even similar," without being "foggy and condescending?"


Do you understand the concept of jargon?

Or how a log can be a piece of wood or a record of activity?

The topic is adhere, stick, join and follow, the order of nian and lian in particular. These are skills to know the opponent, their intentions, feel and understand them, while not resisting and not separating with them. These may be common goals in MAs. These words can be used to describe both what professional fighters use in fights and tai chi players use in push hands, however different their training, use and context. A main difference may be that professional fighters use these skills with and without contact. Since per you (and maybe others), taijiquan favors contact.

origami_itto wrote:If you find it helpful, by all means go for it. But in my humble opinion, looking at these clips and claiming they represent anything approaching taijiquan skills is obviously perfectly accurate and reflects a deep and nuanced understanding of the matters being discussed.

Some may find it helpful seeing the skills of adhere, stick, join and follow used against a non-compliant opponent in a fight, although they may be different from the skills used in push hands.

There is no "claim they represent taijiquan." The claim is professional fighters have similar goals and skills that may be described with adhere, stick, join and follow. In the 1st page clips, both Wang Peisheng and Machida get a reaction from their opponent without touch. Machida adds pressing down and foot sweep to finish his opponent.

When professional fighters fight, the engagement starts before contact. Skills similar to adhere, stick, join and follow are used before contact—which may not be the case in taijiquan, as per you it favors contact first.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby windwalker on Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:59 am

CheapBastid wrote:I've seen two versions of the order of the characters:
zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随
conversely
zhan 沾 lian 连(t'ieh?) nian 黏 sui 随

The first is referenced several places, mainly well referenced here: http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_DaShouGe/arti_TJ_DaShouGe.html.
The second I am told was from Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo's translation of an original version of 郑曼青 Cheng Man-ch'ing first book in Chinese.

Anyone have a clearer idea of which order is more 'correct'?



What is more correct really depends on level, experience and skill set..

some thoughts

Reading though the link, noticed the tone of the article is quite different from other lines that focus on different aspects.
Tends to remind me of those I've encountered who had learned directly from Yang family members...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ2uIJKL_Ig

A good clip first hand accounting of someone with experience, who notes just how different it is,,,not "similar" to all the other experience's he's had competitively and through training....He mentions and talks about his experience embodying the "sticking" "adhering " "joining" and following...principles .

Echos many others with other teachers having the same type of experiences with those they've met.

Adam, does a good job explaining his rational for the order used


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmaMliUGuJA&t=7s

This clip of Teacher Wang Peisheng, he emphasizes how different taiji "jin" is from other methods...
Talks at a level that most might be able to relate, ... to an audience that understands the nuances....
that in "translation" may lead to other conclusions with out the cultural background the audience has or the direct experience
from which to view it from...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opXJ9gxVQmw

This teacher Gao, ZhuangFei, his student goes more in. depth to the underling theory by which it works...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7T7jTPK9Wg&t=129s


Whether touched or not, the principles by which it works are the same....
The basic idea begins at touch, to no touch based on the same principles.

It's quite different
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:23 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby cloudz on Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:23 am

Giles wrote:
windwalker wrote:There is this example

Tigger warning: :o watch at your own risk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmaMliUGuJA&t=7s


There's nothing in this video that makes me personally feel triggered, or indeed even Tiggered ;)
I think that Mizner is here giving clear how-to-do explanations. Starting with "bu diu, bu ding" and working from there, showing the effects and results with skill. In a teaching situation like this, free of 'qi-mystification', dubious anti-grappling demonstrations and other stuff that browns me off, I think he presents very good stuff.


I agree completely. I thought it was a good demo and good explanation.
fair-play, credit where it's due. He's good at demonstrating this kind of engagement with students, it's a shame his stuff veers where it does so often.
it's where his bread gets buttered unfortunately.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby cloudz on Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:33 am

Giles wrote:
windwalker wrote:mmm must be new to RSF ;D
Many threads about him , not in a good way.
Hence the warning, for those that he seems to trigger.

His work and others, all very similar in nature
many eliciting the same comments :-\
Curiously enough some even use examples of other people in different arts, suggesting that shown in the examples is the same thing as what teacher Wang Peisheng, talked about and demonstrated
No one commented or found it strange. :-\
Thought it rather pointless pointing out the differences understanding different view points, experiences not shared
make it hard to do so...
case in point
In a teaching situation like this, free of 'qi-mystification', dubious anti-grappling demonstrations and other stuff that browns me off,
I think he presents very good stuff.

ok ;D
One should understand without the aforementioned, many things will tend not to make sense....


Good heavens, Windwalker. You post a video of Mizner, I write that I think this one is pretty good, both in the explanation and the demonstration - and you still respond with one of those postings both foggy and condescending. If I attempt a quick exegesis, I think your basic message is: 'Other people have different experiences and viewpoints than I (Windwalker) do, which is perfectly fine and to be respected, but at the same time these 'other experiences and viewpoints' show they are hopeless noobs who have no idea about real tai chi because they don't share my enlightened perspective.' ....... ??

If that is what you're actually saying, then I can live with it.
Or you're saying something else, but in that case I'm afraid I don't get it.


most of the time, I think David is trying to convince himself.. of his own understanding.
otherwise I don't know what he's trying to prove anymore, it's been five years or more..surely.

we're just too dumb to get it, the way it's been told.
we must recite the dogma!
believe every turn of theatre
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby cloudz on Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:42 am

marvin8 wrote:
origami_itto wrote:
marvin8 wrote:You consistently use Chinese words attributing them with other meanings trying to fit them into your narrative.

Based on ?
You go first, since you repeated it. Why not quote and discuss in your own words why "they are not even similar," without being "foggy and condescending?"


Do you understand the concept of jargon?

Or how a log can be a piece of wood or a record of activity?
The topic is adhere, stick, join and follow, the order of nian and lian in particular. These are skills to know the opponent, their intentions, feel and understand them, while not resisting and not separating with them. These may be common goals in MAs. These words can be used to describe both what professional fighters use in fights and tai chi players use in push hands, however different their training, use and context. A main difference may be that professional fighters use these skills with and without contact. Since per you (and maybe others), taijiquan favors contact.

origami_itto wrote:If you find it helpful, by all means go for it. But in my humble opinion, looking at these clips and claiming they represent anything approaching taijiquan skills is obviously perfectly accurate and reflects a deep and nuanced understanding of the matters being discussed.

Some may find it helpful seeing the skills of adhere, stick, join and follow used against a non-compliant opponent in a fight, although they may be different from the skills used in push hands.

There is no "claim they represent taijiquan." The claim is professional fighters have similar goals and skills that may be described with adhere, stick, join and follow. In the 1st page clips, both Wang Peisheng and Machida get a reaction from their opponent without touch. Machida adds pressing down and foot sweep to finish his opponent.

When professional fighters fight, the engagement starts before contact. Skills similar to adhere, stick, join and follow are used before contact—which may not be the case in taijiquan, as per you it favors contact first.



it's a good point

either mental engagement of relative physical positioning, at distance, or the engagement at physical touch.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby windwalker on Mon Sep 26, 2022 8:56 am

Haha funny:)

The comment about trigger warnings, was wrote with You “ George” in
Mind Considering some of your past reactions and present comments a kind of tongue and cheek.

Attempt at Humor

Regarding my postings


My interest maybe mistakenly so, to offer a first-hand accounting to some of the things discussed and questioned here from a different Perspective.
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby cloudz on Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:03 am

i'm just observing that you've practically been on repeat with your messaging for a long time over these things, the stamina of it is remarkable.
there's nothing fundamentally wrong with 'the message'; in its appropriate context.

plus it helps if you don't flog the horse to its last breaths.
the Mizner clip did a good job, it's more than enough.
I think plenty of us get it, even though you somehow keep refusing to believe that.

it's like you're stuck in a certain feedback loop, that you've mostly made for yourself - imo, and you struggle to break out of the pattern. :-\
groundhog day like everyday.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:14 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby windwalker on Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:17 am

cloudz wrote:i'm just observing that you've practically been on repeat with your messaging for a long time over these things, the stamina of it is remarkable.
there's nothing fundamentally wrong with 'the message'; in its appropriate context.

plus it helps if you don't flog the horse to its last breaths.
the Mizner clip did a good job, it's more than enough.
I think plenty of us get it, even though you somehow keep refusing to believe that.

it's like you're stuck in a certain feedback loop, that you've mostly made for yourself - imo, and you struggle to break out of it. :-\

perhaps so, although it seems the same questions get asked again rephrased in a different way.


you're just happy to lead everyone round in a circular dance.. ad infinatum


Quite right, leading is , following, following is leading

Later. :)
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby cloudz on Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:18 am

"different perspective"

how many times does the same 'different perspective' stay a different perspective...
different to what?

there's that perspective, another one, and then there's the balanced one..
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby cloudz on Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:20 am

windwalker wrote:
cloudz wrote:i'm just observing that you've practically been on repeat with your messaging for a long time over these things, the stamina of it is remarkable.
there's nothing fundamentally wrong with 'the message'; in its appropriate context.

plus it helps if you don't flog the horse to its last breaths.
the Mizner clip did a good job, it's more than enough.
I think plenty of us get it, even though you somehow keep refusing to believe that.

it's like you're stuck in a certain feedback loop, that you've mostly made for yourself - imo, and you struggle to break out of it. :-\

perhaps so, although it seems the same questions get asked again rephrased in a different way.
you're just happy to lead everyone round in a circular dance.. ad infinatum


Quite right, leading is , following, following is leading

Later. :)


or sometimes it's just one person talking and another listening
at least it should be. then the other person takes a turn, but he has to have really listened.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Steve James on Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:51 am

:) "Sticking" in western boxing isn't similar to stick or adhere in tcc. Imo, that's because the emphasis is solely on striking. It's more applicable in grappling/wrestling (forms of 'na'), and especially in throwing and/or where the object is to use the opponent's force/jin against him. I.e., the skill of attaching to an opponent then following and leading him in the same direction using little of one's own force/jin.

That is a strategy, but not the only one. As Doc pointed out, maintaining one's stability while leading the opponent into a compromised position (to execute a strike, for ex) is also a strategy. Imo, a boxer slipping a punch in order to land a blow is a similar concept. In a push hands thread, George, iinm, where a tcc teacher exhibited it quite well.

This is the one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ5ULWxXY5k&t=182s
Last edited by Steve James on Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby everything on Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:41 pm

"different" quality is what liangdehua said as well. then he said he doesn't really know how to explain it.

I don't know what else to call it as it feels qualitatively different (on the receiving side ... something is "different" and it happens on the "inside". what more can really be said?

if you don't know what I mean, it's probably too confusing. If you know what I mean, you may still have a hard time explaining. If you are able to explain it, it might still not help me to get it. it really is "Taoist" in this "way that can be told" is not the true Tao kind of thing.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby johnwang on Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:42 pm

Steve James wrote::) "Sticking" ... It's more applicable in grappling/wrestling.

Sticking should not be only 1 point contact. It can be 3 points contact with 3 different direction force vectors.

1. Left hand pulls down your opponent's right arm.
2. Right hand lifts up his left arm.
3. Righ leg bites down his right leg.

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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Steve James on Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:05 pm

Sticking should not be only 1 point contact. It can be 3 points contact with 3 different direction force vectors.

1. Left hand pulls down your opponent's right arm.
2. Right hand lifts up his left arm.
3. Righ leg bites down his right leg.


You don't need me to agree, but I do, fwiw. Afa grappling/wrestling in tcc, the object is to close (and get close) to the opponent. "Heart to heart" isn't a bad saying, but if one wants to do a hip throw ....

Anyway, some tcc schools have/had "sticky leg" drills. Lee Ying Arn had a book on "Chinese Leg Maneuvers," and something similar used to be seen in HK kungfu movies. Wing chun also has them.
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