zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Doc Stier on Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:53 pm

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:If your opponent can move faster than you, none of your kick and punch can land on him...

Timing beats speed.

Since action is generally faster than reaction, an opponent with superior speed will usually be capable of attacking faster than your timing can react to, especially from a stationary position.

However, constant movement driven by agile footwork can defeat speed by controlling the interval gap, while presenting a continuously moving target which is more difficult to hit even with a speed advantage.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby johnwang on Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:35 pm

marvin8 wrote:
johnwang wrote:If your opponent can move faster than you, none of your kick and punch can land on him...

Timing beats speed.

If your opponent can run faster than you, your timing will mean nothing.

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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Steve James on Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:06 am

That's the problem of all martial art: How does one defeat the opponent who's faster and stronger. Tcc "theory" is entirely based on the premise that one isn't stronger and faster, and it's where all those nifty sayings come into play. Many are straight out of Suntzu's "Art of War."

Running away is an option... when it's an option, but there may be situations where retreat isn't possible (or desired). A western boxer's typical methods of dealing with a faster opponent are to cover up, clinch, stay out of range, or... take the shots to get a shot. Frazier v Ali, for ex. But, there's also Ali v Inoki.

I'm not a big believer in sticking to or catching the punches/kicks of people who know how to strike. But, the big question is always how one responds to being it. "No plan survives first contact with the enemy." (Because the enemy has their own plans, duh).
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Bao on Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:50 am

Steve James wrote:That's the problem of all martial art: How does one defeat the opponent who's faster and stronger. Tcc "theory" is entirely based on the premise that one isn't stronger and faster,


Nt exactly- The basic theory is to not apply strength directly against your opponent's strength. Yang against Yin, and Yin against Yang. If you are weaker or stronger, the same method applies.

If you let someone apply strength on your body, and you go against that person's strength with your own strength, then the stronger person will win.

If you don't let anyone apply strength on you, then your opponent's strength is not an important factor.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby windwalker on Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:09 am

Steve James wrote:That's the problem of all martial art: How does one defeat the opponent who's faster and stronger. Tcc "theory" is entirely based on the premise that one isn't stronger and faster, and it's where all those nifty sayings come into play. Many are straight out of Suntzu's "Art of War."

.


what is mentioned relates to a physicality that is natural.




汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan


自己的意氣是不是通出體外了,要問對方。在初級階段,與對方一搭手,對方感到不過,就說 明內氣達到對方身上了。以後經過學練,逐步能"聽"、"問"、"拿"、"放"用意氣發人,進行技
擊。
To find out whether your Yi and Qi are projected outside your body, you may ask your opponent. When you first study and touch hand with your opponent, they may feel uncomfortable.

Thus it is clear that the Internal Qi has reached their body.

After you practice and improve, then you can use “listen, ask, seize, and let go” (Ting, Wen, Na, Fang) and use Yi and Qi to 發 (Fa, “explode,” i.e. Fajin) as the basis of your fighting skills.


outlined above reflects the practices understanding that we use.
What is being used , trained and developed to overcome the others lack of understanding or direct training to use it...



While one may appear to be weaker slower ect.
Inside they are not :)

內勁兒和力是兩碼事(不同的事物)。
Neijin and Li (force) are two different things.

內勁兒即太極勁兒,是神、意、氣的化合,不是神、意、氣的集中。
Neijin, or in this case, Tai Chi Jin, comes from harmonizing Shen, Yi, and Qi (神、意、氣, ‘spirit’, mind­intent, and Qi),
and not from concentrating Shen, Yi, and Qi.



As always others may find different / have different practices ect...
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby johnwang on Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:03 pm

Bao wrote:The basic theory is to not apply strength directly against your opponent's strength. Yang against Yin, and Yin against Yang.

I believe the basic theory is to "borrow your opponent's strength".

- Strength against strength is A - B < A.
- Borrow strength is A + B > A.

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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby LaoDan on Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:06 pm

Touch is faster than vision over numerous different stimuli speeds and durations. While one could apply the terminology of TJQ to non-contact encounters (i.e., visual stimuli), the principles seem to be better applicable to from-contact interactions (i.e., tactile stimuli). This touch reaction speed is best when one’s muscles are not too stiff nor too slack (don’t resist and don’t let loose). If one has awareness through touch, there is not as much mental processing that needs to occur prior to reacting, as when compared to what is needed through processing visual stimuli. I think that this is why TJQ emphasizes listening through touch, and resiliency of the muscle tension level (tonus). We want the body to maintain the stretch reflex capabilities of our muscles (maintaining proper structure and muscle tonus) so that the brain processing does not slow down our reactions. This is especially important for counter-strikers since actions are faster than reactions; counter-strikers need to minimize any delayed reaction [note that the idealized analogy of a properly inflated rubber ball is capable of immediate reaction without even possessing a brain, i.e. there is no delayed reaction to incoming pressure].

Pengjin (rebounding ability from properly maintained structure and muscle resiliency, i.e., the stretch reflex) as well as the ability to freely rotate in response to pressure (lujin) appear to be what allows TJQ practitioners to receive attacks and turn them into vulnerabilities that can then be exploited for counter-attacks. This touch sensitivity and reaction speed quality of proper muscle tonus and structure appear, to me, to be what facilitates zhan & nian [facilitated through manifesting proper pengjin], and lian & sui [facilitated through manifesting proper lujin].

It is the above qualities that allow a TJQ practitioner to respond leisurely to slow attacks, but also respond quickly to fast attacks.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Bao on Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:57 pm

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:The basic theory is to not apply strength directly against your opponent's strength. Yang against Yin, and Yin against Yang.

I believe the basic theory is to "borrow your opponent's strength".

- Strength against strength is A - B < A.
- Borrow strength is A + B > A.

Image


"Borrowing" is one practical example of a general principle. "Borrow", "lead", "trap", "fill in", "mirroring".... = "Yang against Yin, and Yin against Yang"

Good gif btw, a very good illustration and well executed. "Blend seamlessly in with your opponent's movements."
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Giles on Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:41 am

LaoDan wrote:Touch is faster than vision over numerous different stimuli speeds and durations. While one could apply the terminology of TJQ to non-contact encounters (i.e., visual stimuli), the principles seem to be better applicable to from-contact interactions (i.e., tactile stimuli). This touch reaction speed is best when one’s muscles are not too stiff nor too slack (don’t resist and don’t let loose). If one has awareness through touch, there is not as much mental processing that needs to occur prior to reacting, as when compared to what is needed through processing visual stimuli. I think that this is why TJQ emphasizes listening through touch, and resiliency of the muscle tension level (tonus). We want the body to maintain the stretch reflex capabilities of our muscles (maintaining proper structure and muscle tonus) so that the brain processing does not slow down our reactions. This is especially important for counter-strikers since actions are faster than reactions; counter-strikers need to minimize any delayed reaction [note that the idealized analogy of a properly inflated rubber ball is capable of immediate reaction without even possessing a brain, i.e. there is no delayed reaction to incoming pressure].

Pengjin (rebounding ability from properly maintained structure and muscle resiliency, i.e., the stretch reflex) as well as the ability to freely rotate in response to pressure (lujin) appear to be what allows TJQ practitioners to receive attacks and turn them into vulnerabilities that can then be exploited for counter-attacks. This touch sensitivity and reaction speed quality of proper muscle tonus and structure appear, to me, to be what facilitates zhan & nian [facilitated through manifesting proper pengjin], and lian & sui [facilitated through manifesting proper lujin].

It is the above qualities that allow a TJQ practitioner to respond leisurely to slow attacks, but also respond quickly to fast attacks.


To my mind that's a very nice and non-mystifying summary of some of the how and why of Tai Chi Chuan. Not all of it, but a very important part of it.
(In most of the lineages I've trained in, the body rotation can also be part of the pengjin package, not only of lujin, and lujin also involves creating emptiness, drawing in, being there-but-not-there while not losing contact. But just as an aside here).

The more you can organize mind and body into a correct and useful state as described above (which can be more-or-less maintained when things start getting fast and unpredictable), the more the correct responses, techniques, solutions will present themselves, with ever less (conscious) mental processing. Actually the cerebellum is probably working overtime, but this brain area has the highest network density, if I remember rightly, and at this moment the conscious mind with its plans and its emotions can take a break. As is the case in riding a bicycle, for instance.

DOC STIER: Since action is generally faster than reaction, an opponent with superior speed will usually be capable of attacking faster than your timing can react to, especially from a stationary position.

However, constant movement driven by agile footwork can defeat speed by controlling the interval gap, while presenting a continuously moving target which is more difficult to hit even with a speed advantage.


Yes, by changing, lengthening or shortening the distance to a moving attacker as he steps in, you can also gain touch contact with Taiji quality on your own terms, with distance, angle and timing that suits you more than him. Once this touch is established, if the aforementioned mind and body organization are still good, you can for instance 'hitch a ride' on the attacking arm as it extends or retracts. Borrowing the opponent's strength and speed, often stepping in simultaneously to dominate the space. I had a teacher in Malaysia who did this very well. The whole thing takes just a fraction of a second, and of course it requires lots of appropriate training.

@John Wang. Very nice move.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby marvin8 on Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:42 am

LaoDan wrote:While one could apply the terminology of TJQ to non-contact encounters (i.e., visual stimuli), the principles seem to be better applicable to from-contact interactions (i.e., tactile stimuli)....

It is the above qualities that allow a TJQ practitioner to respond leisurely to slow attacks, but also respond quickly to fast attacks.

Good explanation. However, then what does a TJQ practitioner do before contact in a fight? Professional fighters, whether strikers or grapplers, typically use skills similar (e.g., in objectives) to yin, na, ting, hua, zhan, nian, lian and sui—before contact. Once the opponent is double weighted, then they make contact/connect.

Excerpt from "A Real Fight:"

Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming on February 20, 2017 wrote:
Before Contact

Taijiquan is a martial style that specializes in short-range fighting. Most of the techniques are based on and developed from adhering-sticking. Middle-range fighting, which uses a limited amount of kicking, is used but is not commonly seen. Long-range fighting, in which kicking plays a major role, is mostly ignored in taiji.

Therefore, if you are a taijiquan fighter and are about to fight, you must know several important things. Do you know how to avoid long-range attacks? How do you approach the opponent safely and move into middle and short range? Do you know how to connect and intercept so you can use your taijiquan techniques? These questions are probably the most important for today’s taijiquan martial artists, because these types of training have been neglected for the last fifty years.

1. Knowing the Suitable Fighting Distance
Taijiquan specializes in short-range fighting, with middle range second in importance and long range last. You therefore want to stay at short range because it is the most advantageous for you. If your opponent is also in a style that specializes in short-range fighting, such as Crane or Snake styles, your techniques must be higher than your opponent’s in order to win the fight. If your opponent is in a style that specializes in long-range fighting, such as Long Fist or Praying Mantis, then you must be aware of what distance is most advantageous for his kicking. For different opponents, the strategy can be completely different. The key to winning a fight is to always maintain the fighting distance that is most advantageous for you.

2. Knowing the Enemy’s Fighting Capability
In order to set up your fighting strategy, you must first know your enemy’s ability and strategy. Going into a fight blind is dangerous. There are several ways you can discover your opponent’s fighting potential and specialties. First, you can judge him pretty well if you know what style he has learned. For example, Long Fist style will be good in long-range kicking techniques. Second, you can use a fake attack to test his awareness, reaction, speed, and spirit. Third, you can often tell a lot about a person from his facial expression. For example, if his face is calm but reactive, and his steps stable and steady, then you know you face a strong opponent.

3. Knowing the Ways of Avoiding an Attack
Once you know the situation for both of you, then you must also know the ways and techniques of avoiding your opponent’s attack.

4. Knowing How to Trick the Enemy
You must know how to trick and fake the opponent and create the opportunity for you to move into medium and short range safely and effectively.

5. Knowing How to Connect
Once you have closed the distance to short range, you must know how to intercept and connect to the opponent so that you can use taijiquan techniques. is will be dis- cussed in the next section.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Steve James on Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:15 am

Taijiquan is a martial style that specializes in short-range fighting. Most of the techniques are based on and developed from adhering-sticking.


Yang Jwing Ming specializes in qinna and da qinna; so, his tcc is definitely "short-range" and requires contact in order to control.

This leads to an old argument: Is tcc short strike or long strike? It seems that "medium" is probably the best description, though. In long strike arts, the opponents work from long distance. Boxing (western style) uses long strikes. Matching a boxer in a boxing environment can be difficult for a tcc person because of the lack of contact, with the additional difficulty of having gloves covering the hands.

Hey, some tcc schools use lots of kicks and long punches (i.e. punches unlike the fists found in the tcc form). There are some where tcc is also taught along with eagle claw, for ex. Also, nowadays, there are tcc people who also study bjj, catch, shuai jiao, or some other ma -because the tcc form doesn't have a ground aspect.

Anyway, imo, YJM is right that the idea is to get into contact with the opponent.

Afa the visual aspect, just as hearing is not listening; seeing is not observing. The latter can be trained... actually, that means experienced. For ex., if you see someone balling up their fists while they're coming toward you, you can be prepared to react. In fact, you can sneak the guy who thinks he's going to sucker punch you. :)
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby windwalker on Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:21 am

marvin8 wrote: However, then what does a TJQ practitioner do before contact in a fight?

Professional fighters, whether strikers or grapplers, typically use skills similar (e.g., in objectives) to yin, na, ting, hua, zhan, nian, lian and sui—before contact. Once the opponent is double weighted, then they make contact/connect.




Not all taiji practitioners would agree with some of the postings...

Before contact, is already contact depending if one follows some of the other ideas that some practices are based on..
.ie what is considered to be connected with is not physical .
Think of a fish in water,,able to sense movement in the water itself acting and reacting on this.

When we speak of double weighted, it means the mind and body in the same place...at the same time...
not necessarily about weight distribution..seems a little different from what has been mentioned
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby everything on Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:27 am

speed

getting way off topic here, but was just reading (in Easy Strength) something like

fast guys will get tired. big guys won't shrink.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby marvin8 on Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:51 am

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote: However, then what does a TJQ practitioner do before contact in a fight?

Professional fighters, whether strikers or grapplers, typically use skills similar (e.g., in objectives) to yin, na, ting, hua, zhan, nian, lian and sui—before contact. Once the opponent is double weighted, then they make contact/connect.

Not all taiji practitioners would agree with some of the postings...

Before contact, is already contact depending if one follows some of the other ideas that some practices are based on..
.ie what is considered to be connected with is not physical .
Think of a fish in water,,able to sense movement in the water itself acting and reacting on this.

Right. Which is what I tried to explain. Lián can mean join with or without touch. And, tīng can mean listen with or without touch, etc. Which is why I asked people to please don't argue a staw man, because it diverts the discussion.

windwalker wrote:When we speak of double weighted, it means the mind and body in the same place...at the same time...
not necessarily about weight distribution..seems a little different from what has been mentioned

Agree. It was not "mentioned" otherwise.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby cloudz on Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:57 am

Steve James wrote:That's the problem of all martial art: How does one defeat the opponent who's faster and stronger. Tcc "theory" is entirely based on the premise that one isn't stronger and faster, and it's where all those nifty sayings come into play. Many are straight out of Suntzu's "Art of War."



well that's really where contact comes into play; because what is left unsaid in the above is skill level. we assume you may not be faster or stronger and in that case you have to have the superior skill or you are toast however way you cut it.

for example when I've faced trained wrestlers/mma and or certain bjj guys from stand up - the thing I am most wary of is the low leg shot; if you allow the time and or space for it and they have the speed and or set up... it puts you in a bad spot in terms of being taken down. ok that in itself is not the end, but let's use the premise we don't want to be on our back, on the floor.

what's the answer?

well, I think always in fighting you need to be asking questions and keeping track of the answers. there comes a point where you go from getting to know, to knowing your opponent. You can generally gauge someones strength through size and weight, but it's still variable. Speed is a bit harder, but may be judged pre contact, and skill harder still - it will generally be the latter to emerge or triumph. Depending also how the others factors balance out.

waiting can be a 50:50 gamble if you don't know the kind of speed someone can do it. if you catch the timing you can defend, but if you don't want to chance that..

My point is; if you want to stop someone(stronger&faster) doing something like punching at you or shooting at your leg - you just need to close the distance and smother up/ clinch up/ tie up whilst keeping some defences; then if you have the better skill you will take the control and use it to your advantage. That's where these skills are really useful - at contact.

putting them in the context of non contact is not literal mapping you have to use a bit of imagination. The Machida sweep clip is a good example. But it goes on in boxing too. 'sticking' may not be about physical contact, in boxing, the vast majority of the time (though I would say it goes on in clinch on the ropes and the odd bit of bridging; some boxers will use it more than others), it's in the mental game and the distancing. staying in the pocket for example or maintaining just the right distance - that is the same - in analogy - to not butting/resisting and not running away. Then taking what Machida did as an example, luring in Penn to the position he wanted; just translate that to a boxer setting up a shot in an analogous way.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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