how are YOU working on fangsong

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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby cloudz on Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:41 am

skill and technique have to always come first
when it comes to strength martial arts has alway been about using it as economically as possible.
not treating it as 'dirty'
whether that's deflection or striking out, so on and so forth

don't let the woo woo guys sell you any different.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby origami_itto on Tue Oct 04, 2022 4:02 am

I don't know that focusing on strength at all is useful. Generally we focus more on eliminating excess muscles than strengthening then directly.

There was a guy I used to push with the was thinking like that. He would put his feet on the couch and hold his upper body up with his arm in a peng shape. He had much bigger and more well defined muscles than me.

Every time he tried to push me out with his peng he pushed himself out instead. His arm stayed firm and rigid, giving me a huge handle to manipulate. Doesn't matter how strong your arm is if it's on an unsteady base.

We generate force, but not with direct muscular contractions (li). Force is simply the measurement of how much something accelerates. It says nothing about what generates the force.

There's a story about somebody wanting to fight Yang Liu Chan and in typical fashion he devised a non fighting way to settle the question.

They sat in chairs facing each other and put their fists together. The idea was to knock the other one over or whatever.

That didn't happen, what did happen is YLC sat there relaxed and calm while the other dude got red faced and sweaty and his chair made loud creaking noises.

When you see li against li, you'll often see the people involved shaking with the exertion, often holding their breath. When one is using good taijiquan, they will be still while the other is shaking. If they decide to oppose the force directly.

Stand like a scale, move like a wheel. Those are just two kinds of levers.

Force in taijiquan is generated through leverage, not direct application of muscles. The forms and jibengong if done correctly and consistently, will give you the freedom of movement and strength you need to make it work.

There are some good reasons to get your heart rate up and work your muscles directly to make them stronger but I don't believe that will help my taijiquan. Ymmv.

I do use weights and resistance bands and heavy bag and target bag but I strive to use them in ways that complement taijiquan shen fa rather than degrade it.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby Quigga on Tue Oct 04, 2022 5:04 am

Bao and cloudz, I really like your posts. I would heavily agree with the point: the action feels effortless and yet produces great effect.

Many ways to achieve that effortlessness - unbalancing the partner first, then only a very slight push is enough to force a step. Or applying a joint lock, thereby controlling the rest of the structure. Or using students that are much smaller/weaker than oneself... Or ways of conditioning student's response to teacher actions. Or using students that are very keen to save teacher's face.

What I find most important in my limited experience is stacking the body properly from the inside. It's like a Lego tower made out of jelly with some sticks in there, somehow... Every part above and below each other part has to 'click' into each other, while still being able to move...

My idea is 'suspend the head from the crown as if lifted up by a string / stand upright with no effort'. If I feel like floating/flying, it's good.

Life was more physical in general back then, so people were more fit from the get go... One should have at least this basis, maybe.

When I'm breathing, I feel a mass of something in my chest expanding and deflating, so that's interesting.

I lack skill to comment on other skills.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby Trip on Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:01 am

:)
Last edited by Trip on Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:33 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby everything on Tue Oct 04, 2022 6:06 am

so how are YOU all working on "fangsong" in this kind of resistance context?

if we stick to "primary sources" (people here) and not "secondary" or "tertiary", it might be more interesting.

it's ok if you say it's like judo or sumo. but if you achieve a level of "effortlessness", it probably has some component of relax or some yin/yang of relax/tense.

it's also ok if you think that's like a KB swing, for example. Kind of tense then "float" and "relax".

If you do any athletic movement, a lot of it is like this when you get it right.

But there is more to tai chi imo and imle. I guess most people here think that, too, or else you would just think any MA and sports can be like "tai chi". But trying to go from the above to "tai chi" may seem a bit too woo and hard to discuss. Keeping it grounded to "fangsong" may be a little easier.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby cloudz on Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:37 am

origami_itto wrote:I don't know that focusing on strength at all is useful. Generally we focus more on eliminating excess muscles than strengthening then directly.

There was a guy I used to push with the was thinking like that. He would put his feet on the couch and hold his upper body up with his arm in a peng shape. He had much bigger and more well defined muscles than me.

Every time he tried to push me out with his peng he pushed himself out instead. His arm stayed firm and rigid, giving me a huge handle to manipulate. Doesn't matter how strong your arm is if it's on an unsteady base.

We generate force, but not with direct muscular contractions (li). Force is simply the measurement of how much something accelerates. It says nothing about what generates the force.

There's a story about somebody wanting to fight Yang Liu Chan and in typical fashion he devised a non fighting way to settle the question.

They sat in chairs facing each other and put their fists together. The idea was to knock the other one over or whatever.

That didn't happen, what did happen is YLC sat there relaxed and calm while the other dude got red faced and sweaty and his chair made loud creaking noises.

When you see li against li, you'll often see the people involved shaking with the exertion, often holding their breath. When one is using good taijiquan, they will be still while the other is shaking. If they decide to oppose the force directly.

Stand like a scale, move like a wheel. Those are just two kinds of levers.

Force in taijiquan is generated through leverage, not direct application of muscles. The forms and jibengong if done correctly and consistently, will give you the freedom of movement and strength you need to make it work.

There are some good reasons to get your heart rate up and work your muscles directly to make them stronger but I don't believe that will help my taijiquan. Ymmv.

I do use weights and resistance bands and heavy bag and target bag but I strive to use them in ways that complement taijiquan shen fa rather than degrade it.


it's not about 'focusing' on strength = did I say that.
it's a factor you need to balance

it needs to be factored in

strength, mobility, motor control
it's slightly broad - but that's all there really is..

just taking 'strength'; there are a bunch of types to talk about; that come into fighting
ignore them at your own detriment.

like I said skill comes first, I even said it in a separate post for effect.
so yeah if there is a focus, it's on motor control or should be..

do I need to say it again ?

you posted all that to apparently argue a point that was not contested whatsoever.
I've talked about the kind of strength work I do - for example.
the only difference is lately I've started swinging a kettle bell
the time is in good proportion to everything else I do

did you miss the point or something else..
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby cloudz on Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:39 am

Quigga wrote:Bao and cloudz, I really like your posts.


well thank you!

It's nice to be appreciated
I'm really only trying to help...

the force needs balancing at times.

the jedi are not the real jedi ;D
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby everything on Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:59 am

don't think it's a point anyone's arguing. can't remember if we had a thread on it, but I was thinking "li" in legs and "jin" in upper body.

here's an example, and I think it gets to the fangsong part as well.
one of my judo teachers suggested a throw, not sure where it comes from. many things remind me of "roll back energy" in various ways. as my partner reaches out, I turn and use both hands to "stick"/grab his arm, join and follow his reaching out motion. now this is where imho I tried to use "li" in that after that point I'm "muscling" pulling him in the direction of his original reach. to make it smoother, I think if there is a "rollback" and "peng" throughout the body so there are more contact points, then a "fangsong", it should be much easier to "borrow" the force and throw him. he's just "joined"/"stuck" to me and he's on the outside of my turning circle (body). it's of course very very easy to do with "li" but it's not really that smooth. smoothing it out, hopefully we get to "jin", and part of that is trying to use the "fangsong". regardless, leg strength is obviously a part of it, even more so if it turned into a hip throw. if his reach then pulled back, it would turn into a follow his other direction and do some other thing.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby cloudz on Wed Oct 05, 2022 8:27 am

it's just language
the tao cannot be spoken

there is skill, there is power
there is technique
there is force dynamics
the right place, the right time.

li is strength
jin describes a trained skill related to force - these terms are closely related - it's like the elephant in the zen story; the different monks are touching different parts - words are like that too.
to fa jin is to release a force in a trained fashion; rather than just explosively try to push a car up a hill.

it's a specialist term used by Chinese martial artists to describe how they train to use force and how they develop skills to deal with it.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby everything on Wed Oct 05, 2022 10:23 am

def some of it is tao cannot be told stuff. that is where some may say it's too woo woo. to avoid that for the moment, just getting to "smoothness" and good timing: some of that is where I'd ask - how are you working on fangsong? and the follow-up is - is it helping you achieve the "smoothness"? once you're really good at the move/skill, it "feels" like you don't use strength as it's so ingrained, plus if your timing and angles are good, even more so.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:06 pm

Plenty of people have Smoothness but no sung
Some ballet performers for instance
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby everything on Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:44 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Plenty of people have Smoothness but no sung
Some ballet performers for instance


yeah, I could've made the above example smoother, but that's about it.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby origami_itto on Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:46 pm

cloudz wrote:
origami_itto wrote:I don't know that focusing on strength at all is useful. Generally we focus more on eliminating excess muscles than strengthening then directly.

There was a guy I used to push with the was thinking like that. He would put his feet on the couch and hold his upper body up with his arm in a peng shape. He had much bigger and more well defined muscles than me.

Every time he tried to push me out with his peng he pushed himself out instead. His arm stayed firm and rigid, giving me a huge handle to manipulate. Doesn't matter how strong your arm is if it's on an unsteady base.

We generate force, but not with direct muscular contractions (li). Force is simply the measurement of how much something accelerates. It says nothing about what generates the force.

There's a story about somebody wanting to fight Yang Liu Chan and in typical fashion he devised a non fighting way to settle the question.

They sat in chairs facing each other and put their fists together. The idea was to knock the other one over or whatever.

That didn't happen, what did happen is YLC sat there relaxed and calm while the other dude got red faced and sweaty and his chair made loud creaking noises.

When you see li against li, you'll often see the people involved shaking with the exertion, often holding their breath. When one is using good taijiquan, they will be still while the other is shaking. If they decide to oppose the force directly.

Stand like a scale, move like a wheel. Those are just two kinds of levers.

Force in taijiquan is generated through leverage, not direct application of muscles. The forms and jibengong if done correctly and consistently, will give you the freedom of movement and strength you need to make it work.

There are some good reasons to get your heart rate up and work your muscles directly to make them stronger but I don't believe that will help my taijiquan. Ymmv.

I do use weights and resistance bands and heavy bag and target bag but I strive to use them in ways that complement taijiquan shen fa rather than degrade it.


it's not about 'focusing' on strength = did I say that.
it's a factor you need to balance

it needs to be factored in

strength, mobility, motor control
it's slightly broad - but that's all there really is..

just taking 'strength'; there are a bunch of types to talk about; that come into fighting
ignore them at your own detriment.

like I said skill comes first, I even said it in a separate post for effect.
so yeah if there is a focus, it's on motor control or should be..

do I need to say it again ?

you posted all that to apparently argue a point that was not contested whatsoever.
I've talked about the kind of strength work I do - for example.
the only difference is lately I've started swinging a kettle bell
the time is in good proportion to everything else I do

did you miss the point or something else..

Sure I probably missed the point.
My own point is direct strength training, just contracting muscles to directly move weight, doesn't really give you much in terms of tjq skills, just something really good to fall back on when your tjq fails.

Although to be clear, to listen to some folks talk about taijiquan it sounds like something completely different. Lack of hard work and sweat? Huh?

Hand and ankle weights, vest, weapons/object training, I mean there is plenty of opportunity to build the SPECIFIC strength you need to get it done.
Last edited by origami_itto on Wed Oct 05, 2022 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby everything on Wed Oct 05, 2022 5:01 pm

I was told to hold low stances and to "relax". The two seemed contradictory. Legs shaking and pouring down with sweat, trying to stand and be more song.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby Ad_B on Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:15 am

I can say what and how I train of 'song' as I understand it and I may or may not be 'singing a different song' it could be right, might be wrong, it's 'my song'.

I'm here to learn.

Taking 'song' to infer a balanced, gentle/soft and anticipatory energy thats applied with intention to over-stressed elements (over-extended, poorly aligned, over-weighted, clenched or tensioned) and conversely, under-stressed ones (under-used, weak, collapsed, disregarded, blocked).

Anyway, It'll sound silly but after a long time of 'not getting it'/getting glimpses and losing them again' I put 'intention' and effort into simply focussing upon the extremities (hands, feet and head) to achieve a sense of 'engaged control', purposefully and conscientiously tweaking/rebalancing the power/energy/effort that each extremity was using/applying/having applied to it (from gravity, injury, recoil, tension elsewhere, physical compensation or mental unrulyness/anarchy of the mind etc) to achieve this sense of comfortable, natural, engaged balance with/against the forces applied to each.

My poor, poor tired old feet, trampled upon, taken for granted, ignored and thanklessly bearing the weight of all troubles and strifes. So thats where my particular 'song training' gets focussed but in doing so, realising that there's no separation between those under-addressed and over-stressed bones, muscles and ligaments of the foot and everything else from the tip of the toe to the top of the head (knock-on effect). I don't know if its possible to achieve a subconscious operational 'sense of song' since with me it requires the intermittent, conscious and purposeful 'quietened the mind and intention' to achieve what I take to be the 'stillness in motion' and then 'song'.

At both ends of the day I 'spa' my feet and feet-up just practice focus intention upon expanding>relaxing>contracting and then holding a sense of balance between the expansion and contraction which is visible (toes separated without stress) and comfortable but intentional (thats how I interpret 'song' to be) and hold that physical manifestation where it is for as long as possible. Whilst holding that 'sense' I apply the same to the hands and head (jaw, eyes [soften the gaze?], quieten mind etc) and then just sit awhile gently 'with intention to the feet in particaulr' holding > expanding> relaxing> contracting and then holding. The sensation feels as though each foot is 'breathing' as if it were its own entity. Its a sounds a silly and bullshit thing to do but I'm always impressed had how either under/over-stressed my exercise reveals my feet, hands, head and everything else to be and how many tweaks are required to achieve a nice balanced 'song'. My 'supine-song for the feet' is because I doubt its possible to properly relax/expand/sung some muscles and ligaments whilst they are in use or under pressure and its a very good excuse (if an excuse is required) to put the feet-up for a while.

I walk a lot and whether or not my 'song' is 'The song' my gait and effort-input has certainly improved to the point wherein 'step like a cat' and 'move like a wheel' of the classics seems to make more sense and be realisable so, if it works it works (and it does)....whatever it is.

One physical manfestation which I take to be (again, possibly erroneously....please advise) significant is that I find during 'song training' that once engaged/intentional/balance/harmony there's an accompanying clarity of vision and brightness of colours which didn't last very long at first but after lots of practise the sensation remains for longer and it cannot be summoned by will,intention or effort. It just happens if it wants to and stays as long as it does and then leaves until next time (anyone else?). Another is a sense of 'the drawing inwards of the belly' again, not intentionally or forcefully but a natural realignment. Another is a sense of ease and lightness in motility.

Also by 'songing' my feet as a priority there seemed to be a compensatory development of a sense of appreciation for the things of the 13 dynamics etc for instance 'energy sticks to the back' which I suppose to be that if the stress and 'holding-power/energy' (of external forces or internal 'mind-ape'/biology) is not gathering in the feet legs or anywhere else then it must 'pool' somewhere and is this somewhere best kept (intentionally) to the rear torso where all of the muscles, architecture and nervous system reside?

Anyway, thankyou all for making me think about it.
Last edited by Ad_B on Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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