An intersection of the straight and curved..

[windwalker]

ha well maybe
- if you "see" it without feeling it, it's a bit baffling. it's easiest to "look" for something. "seeing is believing" supposedly.
- there seem to be layers, so the "outer" layers still seem useful with no "inside". those may look quite like something else. diagonal flying for example. I'd argue Machida's favorite throw looks superficially similar. can any of us do that? yeah, I think so. can we do it with peng, an, lie, zhan, nian, lian, sui, fangsong? I don't know.

Don't know who "Machida" is or what he does

I do know who 高壯飞 "Gao Zhuangfei"
is and what he does....

[marvin8]

Why is it that examples of what's said to be "similar movement or applications" are shown of other arts attempting to establish some type of similarity ,
and not of the art or artist in question using it..

Crawford, a boxer (who earned $4 million vs. Brook), is not "attempting similarity..." Please quote my reply to Doc Stier, then discuss your disagreement. What is your argument, in your own words, without being "foggy and condescending?"

In Crawford vs Brook, Crawford performs similar to Mizner's SW fighting application in an actual fight. Crawford uses general (not taijiquan) meaning skills (yin, ting, na, hua, fa, zhan, nian, lian and sui) and the lead cross jab to finish Brook. Crawford uses small movements, quick transitions to lure, time and intercept Brook's similar to lu/ji movements:

Then we have the third part. Why does it go and we move away? So the same thing, I strike. Now when I strike and transfer my weight, I'm already out, I'm evading, I'm slipping. So come. See? I'm out of the fight as I strike. This is unique to Tai Chi. We can generate power, throw a bomb in one direction, while we're stepping in the other direction. Retreating backwards, throwing bombs forward. Moving left, throwing bombs right. It confuses the hell out of your training partner or your opponent.

Crawford performs similar to Mizner's SW fighting application in an actual fight.

Then we have the third part. Why does it go and we (Crawford) moves away? So the same thing, Crawford strikes. Now when Crawford strikes and transfers his weight, He is already out, He is evading, He is slipping. So come. See? Crawford is out of the fight as he strikes. This is not unique to Tai Chi. We (Crawford) can generate power, throw a bomb in one direction, while we're (Crawford is) stepping in the other direction. Retreating backwards, throwing bombs forward. Moving left, throwing bombs right. It confuses the hell out of your training partner or your opponent.

Boxing punches may be turned over, too. I don't know if it fits your context. However, a more powerful, mechanically sound, spiral punch is the lead hand cross:

1. Start in a bow stance or neutral stance with weight on the front left leg, both feet pointing forward and lead hand to the right side of opponent's head.

2. Fold rear kua, lift front heel, shift weight to the back foot, plant rear heel at a 90°angle, while striking and turning lead hand cross over. You are rolling back (lu), while striking.

You end up in a position similar to "bend the bow." However, it's a different punch. Because, you spiral through, cross the centerline, contact is earlier and it's more powerful.

[Doc Stier]

This ongoing discussion regarding the similarities of external form and techniques is both irrelevant and absurd. The human body can only move and shape itself in a limited number of ways.

Thus, outwardly, similar postures and movement patterns can be seen in many different styles and systems, even though they employ different body methods based upon different principles and different power generation methods inwardly.

A similar external appearance of form or application, therefore, doesn't equate to being the same thing, imo. ymmv.

[marvin8]

This ongoing discussion regarding the similarities of external form and techniques is both irrelevant and absurd. The human body can only move and shape itself in a limited number of ways.

Thus, outwardly, similar postures and movement patterns can be seen in many different styles and systems, even though they employ different body methods based upon different principles and different power generation methods inwardly.

A similar external appearance of form or application, therefore, doesn't equate to being the same thing, imo. ymmv.

Let's be more specific. I entered the discussion on the 1st page, after boxing, jabs and SW were discussed. I replied with a clip of Mizner, who has recently been exalted by others, performing SW and a link to my post on the lead cross jab.

Then, you posted:

... In either case, most supposed fighting applications are rarely, if ever, seen performed in actual realtime personal combat scenarios, even by those who are acclaimed as top experts of their respective styles.

I replied with Crawford performing the lead cross jab in an actual fight, which is similar to Mizner's SW fighting application. The lead cross jab matches Mizner's description of SW verbatim.

[Doc Stier]

Ai-aah! Yau mo gau cho aah! Ok. So what? My last post was a general comment, not specifically directed at you or anyone else on this thread, so there's no need to defend your comments. It's all good.

[Steve James]

Hmm, I brought up SW primarily because it (imo) is an intersection of the straight and curved, specifically between the four sides and the four corners.

Imo, the only problem with comparing variations is thinking there's only one correct application for anything. Afa how people appear when they compete, there should be loads of videos of tcc, bagua, xingyi people... and plenty of people saying "See, it works." There's little need for pointing out the similarities. All that needs to happen are people going to represent. In practical terms, they will have to be at least as good at what their opponents do as are their opponents.

[marvin8]

Imo, the only problem with comparing variations is thinking there's only one correct application for anything.

Yes. However, you brought up a jab variation that I replied to, "When I think of a boxer's jab, I compare it to the left hand in the Single Whip. Some people do it "straight" and some make an arc."

Afa how people appear when they compete, there should be loads of videos of tcc, bagua, xingyi people... and plenty of people saying "See, it works." There's little need for pointing out the similarities.

The fact that Tim Bradley, one of the commentators, at 14:31 said, "This was like a jab. Like a right hook," goes to show the uniqueness of the lead cross jab. The similarities between Mizner's SW fighting application demo and the lead cross jab used in an actual fight were shown in reply to Doc Stier's post:

... In either case, most supposed fighting applications are rarely, if ever, seen performed in actual realtime personal combat scenarios, even by those who are acclaimed as top experts of their respective styles.

[johnwang]

When your opponent drag you around in circle, if you

- resist, your opponent can borrow your resistance force.
- yield, your opponent can borrow your yielding force.

Since both resist and yield are not good options, the best counter is to use stratght line to cut in front of your opponent's circle dragging.

[Steve James]

Yes. However, you brought up a jab variation that I replied to, "When I think of a boxer's jab, I compare it to the left hand in the Single Whip. Some people do it "straight" and some make an arc."

Yeah, but the question is why you replied. I was referring to body position, not comparing application... because I wouldn't. I would say that either the right or left hand, in SW, can hit, palm or fist, or "grab." It's set in the form, but obviously people have different interpretations and variations.

[marvin8]

Yes. However, you brought up a jab variation that I replied to, "When I think of a boxer's jab, I compare it to the left hand in the Single Whip. Some people do it "straight" and some make an arc."

Yeah, but the question is why you replied. I was referring to body position, not comparing application... because I wouldn't. I would say that either the right or left hand, in SW, can hit, palm or fist, or "grab." It's set in the form, but obviously people have different interpretations and variations.

As I answered above, in general:

I entered the discussion on the 1st page, after boxing, jabs and SW were discussed. I replied with a clip of Mizner, who has recently been exalted by others, performing SW and a link to my post on the lead cross jab.

[marvin8]

When your opponent drag you around in circle, if you

- resist, your opponent can borrow your resistance force.
- yield, your opponent can borrow your yielding force.

Since both resist and yield are not good options, the best counter is to use stratght line to cut in front of your opponent's circle dragging.

https://i.postimg.cc/P5JML3pY/cut-in-circle.jpg

I believe we are both speaking about intercepting:

In Crawford vs Brook, Crawford performs similar to Mizner's SW fighting application in an actual fight. Crawford uses general (not taijiquan) meaning skills (yin, ting, na, hua, fa, zhan, nian, lian and sui) and the lead cross jab to finish Brook. Crawford uses small movements, quick transitions to lure, time and intercept Brook's similar to lu/ji movements:

https://imgur.com/9CXkCr4.gif

[johnwang]

I believe we are both speaking about intercepting:

Agree! Besides intercepting, what else can we talk about?

- You use circle running, I use straight line to intercept you.
- You use straight punch (jab, cross), I use circular punch (hook, har-maker) to intercept you.

[marvin8]

I believe we are both speaking about intercepting:

Agree! Besides intercepting, what else can we talk about?

We can talk about general (not taijiquan) meaning skills (yin, ting, na, hua, fa, zhan, nian, lian and sui). Which can be used with a variety of strategies: post & rift, gemini twin, 3/4 surrounding, mongolian attacks, 2:1 ratio, artillery screening, etc.

Good to talk about strategies. However, your strategies can be too simplistic and countered.

- You use circle running, I use straight line to intercept you.

I:

1. circle left luring (yin) you to turn and follow (control/na) 2. hand fight and listen (ting) for you to weight the back foot 3. neutralize (hua) your incoming force by issuing (fa) foot sweep and pushing down (an).

- You use straight punch (jab, cross), I use circular punch (hook, har-maker) to intercept you.

I lure (yin) you to chase my lead arm with your "circular punch (hook, hay-maker)." Then, I circle my lead arm into a hook and KO you:

[Doc Stier]

Ai-aah! Yau mo gau cho aah!

I'm guessing that everyone here understood your point of view somewhere during the first 15 videos like this you posted here. Give it a rest!

[Doc Stier]

https://giphy.com/gifs/dead-horse-beat- ... ZsSY0GVlxZ