Yang Style Edits

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Yang Style Edits

Postby dragonprawn on Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:05 am

Hi All,

Looking at many of the vast array of Yang long form demonstrations online I noticed that everyone I have seen has replaced/substituted return tiger to mountain with (yet another) brush knee and single lotus kick with (yet another) heel kick. What gives?
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Re: Yang Style Edits

Postby windwalker on Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:12 am

video examples might help....to clarify. :)
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Re: Yang Style Edits

Postby dragonprawn on Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:41 am

I was thinking the same. I'll have to film myself doing each first though. And then make the video edits. But in the meantime...
Found this photo of single lotus (similar to sweep lotus but you kick only crossed left hand / occurs only once near very end of Yang long form):

Image

And we all know what a heel kick is:

Image.

So why the change?
Last edited by dragonprawn on Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yang Style Edits

Postby Michael Babin on Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:35 am

The rarer posture [sometimes called a Cross kick in English] is harder to do and teach to beginners/Intermediate level students. IMO That's perhaps why it has often been replaced with an "ordinary" heel kick. It's still in Sun-style 97 Posture and in other older Yang forms I have seen on Youtube; but from what I have seen, it seems to have disappeared from the many modern Chinese Sports Colleges versions of the long Yang set.

The basic application of the later [deflect, parry a strike with one arm] while "putting the boot in" to the mid-riff or abdomen is easy enough to visualize or do with a partner. A basic application of the former is tougher to demonstrate or teach as you are pulling the arm you caught in your left hand to your left while doing a high trip or Lotus Style kick in the opposite direction. The idea being to hold or pull the opponent into the direction of your right leg as it moves from left to right.

It's only done once in the long form because it is a low probability move unless you have practised it tons with a partner who at least provides some resistance and unlikely to happen if you're dealing with someone who is feeling "fighty" for real. The Lotus Kick is similar in application and probability against a skilfull opponent.

My opinion, anyway, based on discussions with my former teachers of Yang style as well as colleagues from other styles.
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Re: Yang Style Edits

Postby Doc Stier on Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:41 am

The spinning outside crescent kick which appears at the end of the pre-1930 Yang Style Large Frame Long Imperial 108 Forms Set is much more difficult to perform than the various replacement kicks seen in most Yang Style TCC form sets now.

It requires far greater leg flexibility, as well as much better balance and body control. This change in the form set may have been a concession to the majority of new students at that time, who had no previous martial arts training experience and were primarily interested in TCC only as a health exercise, much like most students today. Thus, they simply lacked the athletic physical attributes needed to perform the more difficult crescent kick.

The elimination of the 'Carry Tiger To The Mountain' posture at the beginning of the second and third sections seen in more modern versions is a modification of the older form sets made by Yang Cheng-Fu for reasons probably known only by him, as with his other edits or modifications of the older form sets.
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Re: Yang Style Edits

Postby dragonprawn on Fri Oct 14, 2022 9:07 am

Thanks Michael. I'll have to look some more to find examples in older videos.
Do you think that the position of the crossed hands could also serve, similar to the cross hands move itself, in "changing gates" before kicking.

Thanks Doc. Yes I think what I practice could be termed the circa 1920 Yang Style Large Frame Long Imperial 108 Forms Set. It is difficult. You really have to cross that leg too, not just the hands. Probably why it is at end of form.
I forget that although we train our students on the CMC 37 long before they learn long form, our ancestors may not have had such luxury nor otherwise be prone to use as much gradual buildup. Hence when their students got up to single lotus I can see how they might have struggled with it.
Thanks for the info on embrace tiger return to mountain (even though its replacement is still a bit mysterious). I can't even find a good picture of what I do (note to self - have daughter film your form this weekend).
Last edited by dragonprawn on Fri Oct 14, 2022 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yang Style Edits

Postby windwalker on Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:03 am

speaking of kicking....

maybe part of the answer is how taiji kicks are done as some have mentioned..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYHNbaf-Nq4&t=1137s
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Re: Yang Style Edits

Postby dragonprawn on Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:25 am

I really got a kick out of that!
She is very flexible and would have no trouble with cross kick. At first I thought she'd be jive, but she tucks and has plenty of good advice.
I guess the overarching question becomes if the masters of old didn't want to take the time or see the necessity of preserving such a kick why should we. I personally want to preserve everything traditional and useful, but I'm also biased because I was taught cross kick (and embrace tiger) to begin with.
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Re: Yang Style Edits

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:55 am

It depends who you are talking about and what application they see
Cross kick leads to groin punch
If you see cross kick as it’s own application it is quite clear and the same in both yang and Wu
If you see it as setting up groin punch both it and brush knee become much more subtle
As for carry tiger a lot just become lazy and substitute brush knee
Once again it depends on seeing the application
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Re: Yang Style Edits

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:35 pm

I just looked at the video
A lot of what she says is right but she has some real in stability in the hip and knee
She uses strength to hide it
One good thing she shows is the hanging horse exercise
There are a couple of variations I teach of this one
Watch her doing the walking closely and u will see her instability
I also find the two feet at 90 to be a bit strange
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Re: Yang Style Edits

Postby cloudz on Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:16 am

I'm not so vigilant maybe, but mostly my experience tells me this should appear a couple of times in the third section
can't say I've noticed it being replaced.
But I don't really watch the many newer variations of Yang style forms like the shortened up ones.
it's not necessary .. (to me)
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Yang Style Edits

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Oct 17, 2022 12:41 pm

The kick he is describing is only in the form once
Done with the right leg jus before groin punch
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Re: Yang Style Edits

Postby cloudz on Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:35 am

yea..
There is a "cross kick" in the third section after the third set of cloud hands after snake spits out it's tongue
I've confused that with the lotus kick that comes a bit later.. but honestly; I'm not that sure about the difference anymore.. my bad.

Help me out here please Wayne
Maybe it's a CPL thing as in both cases they are followed by bend bow shoot tiger in what I tend to follow.
Or maybe it's just something I've started doing myself as I kind of stopped paying attention to 'official' choreography.

using this posture list as reference point : https://shorelinetaichi.com/yang-style- ... ures-list/

73 and 80 the two kicks I'm thinking about. There's a few differences, but essentially similar ?

edit: I just saw Michael and Doc talked about them both..
it's kind of the same kick to me I guess, just how you get into it is a bit different.

The way I've seen my HK wu teacher do it (lotus) is he does the sweep then deliberately kind of does the crescent kick in a 'seperate' fashion.
the application is 'sweep the lotus' which is the front low sweep primarily rather than the in to out round kick. which in that system can also be used in reverse... well any system really.

Mostly though it's done 'as one' in Yang, from what I recall. It's just speculation from me now, but maybe it's formally 'cross kick' and not 'lotus' because it doesn't include the sweep idea.. no big deal though I guess.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Oct 19, 2022 6:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Yang Style Edits

Postby origami_itto on Wed Oct 19, 2022 8:29 am

I learned the cross kick as referring to the fact that your arms are to the sides and the kick is to the front, as opposed to the other kicks where the leg is mostly in line with one of the arms.
It's also a kick with the sole of the foot, not the instep like the lotus leg, but it does follow a turn around.

If I recall correctly...
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Re: Yang Style Edits

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:17 am

It is also the application and the moves before and after them that changes
It is very pronounced in the Wu form
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