Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

[cloudz]

Rob; ok I don't watch a lot of Systema these days, my recollection was of not seeing many others do it who are his students. I think I have seen other branches. But point taken it's more widespread.

again with semantics though, it seems your main concern. If we ask what he is teaching, we get an answer 'psychology'.
what is this psychology exactly ?

I kept going on about magic didn't I. Well illusion is another part.
Is it interesting that there are 8 types of magic. It is to me when you have been obsessed in the past with 5 elements and 8 gates

every king had a wizard.

Ninjas amongst other things were illusionists. In so much as they understood the science and learnt the arts to what suited their objectives.

the 8 types are.

abjuration
conjuration
divination
enchantment
evocation
illusion
necromancy
transmutation


Maybe it's a dick thing to say.. But if you are going to claim something is training "something"(psychology), it would be nice to get the substance rather than the dressing only.

It's hard though.. I imagine if you get the question why do you do it like that - with no contact at all; and it's hard to find substance beyond 'the mundane' (what others are training anyway). eg. sensitivity, awareness, evasion, timing, physical skills and so on.

when you put it like that; it just comes back to LARP, which you denied.
When we ask others to be honest with themselves, we need to follow our own advice right ?
Just saying.

Dude, you're accusing him of LARPing when he's studying and teaching material that is still used in combatives training and going on about your Ninja skills?

Like you realize there was never a person in japan that called themselves a ninja until the 1900s,. Ninja isn't even a japanese word!

And the magic stuff? Dude... that's all debunked myth. It's as LARP as LARP can be.

yea, that's my point..

Magic today is understood as science, engineering, maths
I'm not saying magic is anything other than what we understand today.

I'm not "accusing" anyone in particular.
I LARP !!! we all LARP I thought I made that point a bit earlier.

we train by taking on roles; it's not meant as something insulting, so please don't start taking it that way.

There's a reason it's traditional that the magic circle operates Omerta like they should be in the Sopranos.
They keep their coveted knowledge close to their chest; same as the mentalists and hypnotists.

these were once simply 'arts', where only few understood how it worked; the Science, the maths, the geometry IOW 'the secrets'. Hence they were able to fool others that way into believing in Magic, in a supernatural way and other superstitious things perhaps follow on from a similar basis.

So from that we can understand that "magic" metaphorically lives in that place where we create new stuff at the crossroads of Science and Art. IOW Our Classical Mind and our Romantic Mind; to borrow the terms of Robert Pirsig, the author of ZMM.

[origami_itto]

Bro, I am a mason raised in a lodge with druids, catholics, jews, pagans, thelemites, and assorted hermeticists. I've studied this stuff. I get it.

I don't LARP, and I am definitely insulted when any of my activities are described as such. The closest I've come is the SCA and the whole reenactment thing was just something I tolerated to get to hit people in the head with sticks.

I train by doing exercises. My role is student. I'm american. i wear sweats and dri-weave. There is no part of my practice that is role playing or pretending. I've used the skills I've gained professionally and personally to defend myself and others from direct threat of bodily harm.

now contrast that to this ninja bullshit...

Ninjutsu was if anything a military discipline involving strategy, spying, unconventional tactics that shinobi, who would run away from actual fighting whenever possible, and would backstab and ambush and use long range weapons when not possible to avoid it, studied and used in order to conduct clandestine operations for their feudal lords.

Any martial art associated with a shinobi would be ancillary to that military training. There is no martial art called ninjutsu with any historical credibility.

So when you say you're a ninja, you tell me you're LARPing. You're training in geurilla warfare, spying, and assassination, and maybe some jujutsu and karate, or you're just doing some shit some dude made up by blending jujutsu and karate and branded as Ninja to part you from your coin. In either case, 99% of it is just pretending.

[cloudz]

Re. ninjas..

I could ramble on and on about my school frankly. they never used that term, ever. It was something I sort of cottoned onto, once the history started to circulate by my ears. So for example they only really spoke about Yamabushi, Japanese mountain ascetic hermits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamabushi

There was not a single reason I left the school, but reservations about the history did contribute. After that I started following the CTH system more closely and the teaching of another IMA teacher in the UK. Though I had started exploring these before the end. It still makes me sad if I am perfectly honest. You make some really good friends over a time period like that.

I caught up with them a few years back, my teacher is still a great guy. But the class is nothing like it was.

[cloudz]

Bro, I am a mason raised in a lodge with druids, catholics, jews, pagans, thelemites, and assorted hermeticists. I've studied this stuff. I get it.

I don't LARP, and I am definitely insulted when any of my activities are described as such. The closest I've come is the SCA and the whole reenactment thing was just something I tolerated to get to hit people in the head with sticks.

I train by doing exercises. My role is student. I'm american. i wear sweats and dri-weave. There is no part of my practice that is role playing or pretending. I've used the skills I've gained professionally and personally to defend myself and others from direct threat of bodily harm.

now contrast that to this ninja bullshit...

Ninjutsu was if anything a military discipline involving strategy, spying, unconventional tactics that shinobi, who would run away from actual fighting whenever possible, and would backstab and ambush and use long range weapons when not possible to avoid it, studied and used in order to conduct clandestine operations for their feudal lords.

Any martial art associated with a shinobi would be ancillary to that military training. There is no martial art called ninjutsu with any historical credibility.

So when you say you're a ninja, you tell me you're LARPing. You're training in geurilla warfare, spying, and assassination, and maybe some jujutsu and karate, or you're just doing some shit some dude made up by blending jujutsu and karate and branded as Ninja to part you from your coin. In either case, 99% of it is just pretending.

Ok, no worries, i perfectly understand the ninjutsu issues.
The empty hand martial art is Taijutsu by the way. The term Ninjutsu was never used, but again it doesn't bother me. It was what it was, it's behind me now. I think it was 2006, so I last trained at that school more than 16 years ago. I mostly did TCC, some Japanese sword and Aikido. But I take your point the teacher may well have cobbled things together. I wouldn't call it bullshit, but you are welcome to your opinion!

The reason we are even talking about it is that I see parallels, but if you don't think so, we can drop it. But I think they have faced similar accusations as Hatsumi has for example.

We never "Larped" in the sense you are talking about, but we have picked up this term in different contexts, so I get why you may see it that way.

around maybe 15-17 years ago on forums the term was used for any training that simply did not involve sparring or resistence.
Rightly or wrongly that's how i have learnt to use it and think of it.

I've never run around a dark forest with Black Camo!

We just see the term differently. When I see Judo guys drilling a technique i seem the same method. The other guy is allowing the technique. It's how you learn technique.

when you learnt a throw or a lock, you didn't do it against resistance. You had a "dummy"; just so happens to be a human one following a role.
This is what i mean. Traditional arts more often than not using that one step technique training. Adding a few more steps perhaps here and there.

I have for example BJJ privates every week. we basically exercise, train techniques the same way as any other traditional art, then roll.

that's all i mean by it; it's really not my fault it has negative connotations for others. And further it really isn't necessary to impose them on anyone else. It's a choice to take it negatively or positively. Or alternatively I asked for a different term to training that isn't technically sparring, but is training techniques compliantly. I am more than happy to use a different one. But it changes nothing frankly.

With the whole training summation. i think we can all safely assume the person we are talking to has trained in similar ways. i mean how many ways are there really. You drill, you spar, you.... ?? create different situations. from fixed 'role play'/ TT.. towards freedoms.

The training those guys doing your LARP, training wise, they certainly aren't any worse off, that I can see. I hear it can get pretty rough.

[cloudz]

BTW, just to bring things slightly back on track

Have you seen MR's Beyond the Physical recording ?
this is the kind of work I'm talking about. I don't know why the recipients respond the way they do. and what either role is really getting out of it.
other than what we get out of training with each other with some light contact and dare I say normal responses.

If you watch it, I think the parallels to other training called "empty force" are clear. Aren't they ?

I just don't feel that when the Systema School say Psychology, for me I don't feel that's particularly meaningful or substantive.
Unless, they just don't want to tell their secret sauce for it.. (Joke!)

[RobP3]

Rob; ok I don't watch a lot of Systema these days, my recollection was of not seeing many others do it who are his students. I think I have seen other branches. But point taken it's more widespread.

Pretty much all the teachers do it, to great or lesser degrees. Soloviev is another good one to watch

again with semantics though, it seems your main concern. If we ask what he is teaching, we get an answer 'psychology'. what is this psychology exactly ?

“Psychology is the scientific study of mind and behavior. Psychology includes the study of conscious and unconscious phenomena, including feelings and thoughts. It is an academic discipline of immense scope, crossing the boundaries between the natural and social sciences. Psychologists seek an understanding of the emergent properties of brains, linking the discipline to neuroscience. As social scientists, psychologists aim to understand the behavior of individuals and groupsSome psychologists can also be classified as behavioral or cognitive scientists. Some psychologists attempt to understand the role of mental functions in individual and social behavior. Others explore the physiological and neurobiological processes that underlie cognitive functions and behaviors.”

I mean, I don’t know what else to say, really. Human behaviour? Verbal and non-verbal communication? Understanding motivations and actions?

I kept going on about magic didn't I. Well illusion is another part. Is it interesting that there are 8 types of magic. It is to me when you have been obsessed in the past with 5 elements and 8 gates

Are there? Okay.

Maybe it's a dick thing to say.. But if you are going to claim something is training "something"(psychology), it would be nice to get the substance rather than the dressing only.

The substance is in the doing, with a measure of understanding that comes from experience. Again, I don’t really know what else to say.

I imagine if you get the question why do you do it like that - with no contact at all; and it's hard to find substance beyond 'the mundane' (what others are training anyway). eg. sensitivity, awareness, evasion, timing, physical skills and so on.

But I’m not looking for anything beyond the mundane

when you put it like that; it just comes back to LARP, which you denied.

I explained how training and drills work. If that’s what you call LARP, then all training and sports fights are LARP, I suppose.

When we ask others to be honest with themselves, we need to follow our own advice right ?

So where am I not being honest?

cheers
Rob

[RobP3]

BTW, just to bring things slightly back on track. Have you seen MR's Beyond the Physical recording ?

It's been a while since I watched it

this is the kind of work I'm talking about. I don't know why the recipients respond the way they do. and what either role is really getting out of it.
other than what we get out of training with each other with some light contact and dare I say normal responses.

It might be clearer if you tried it

If you watch it, I think the parallels to other training called "empty force" are clear. Aren't they ?

Not from my perspective, for reasons I already exaplined

I just don't feel that when the Systema School say Psychology, for me I don't feel that's particularly meaningful or substantive.
Unless, they just don't want to tell their secret sauce for it.. (Joke!)

As I said, I don't really know what else to say. What do you want to hear that is "meaningful?" You move, something blocks your way, you tense or shift to avoid or go round it.

Or alternatively I asked for a different term to training that isn't technically sparring, but is training techniques compliantly. I am more than happy to use a different one. But it changes nothing frankly.

It's all just training.

cheers
Rob

[cloudz]

Rob; ok I don't watch a lot of Systema these days, my recollection was of not seeing many others do it who are his students. I think I have seen other branches. But point taken it's more widespread.

Pretty much all the teachers do it, to great or lesser degrees. Soloviev is another good one to watch

again with semantics though, it seems your main concern. If we ask what he is teaching, we get an answer 'psychology'. what is this psychology exactly ?

“Psychology is the scientific study of mind and behavior. Psychology includes the study of conscious and unconscious phenomena, including feelings and thoughts. It is an academic discipline of immense scope, crossing the boundaries between the natural and social sciences. Psychologists seek an understanding of the emergent properties of brains, linking the discipline to neuroscience. As social scientists, psychologists aim to understand the behavior of individuals and groupsSome psychologists can also be classified as behavioral or cognitive scientists. Some psychologists attempt to understand the role of mental functions in individual and social behavior. Others explore the physiological and neurobiological processes that underlie cognitive functions and behaviors.”

I mean, I don’t know what else to say, really. Human behaviour? Verbal and non-verbal communication? Understanding motivations and actions?

I kept going on about magic didn't I. Well illusion is another part. Is it interesting that there are 8 types of magic. It is to me when you have been obsessed in the past with 5 elements and 8 gates

Are there? Okay.

Maybe it's a dick thing to say.. But if you are going to claim something is training "something"(psychology), it would be nice to get the substance rather than the dressing only.

The substance is in the doing, with a measure of understanding that comes from experience. Again, I don’t really know what else to say.

I imagine if you get the question why do you do it like that - with no contact at all; and it's hard to find substance beyond 'the mundane' (what others are training anyway). eg. sensitivity, awareness, evasion, timing, physical skills and so on.

But I’m not looking for anything beyond the mundane

when you put it like that; it just comes back to LARP, which you denied.

I explained how training and drills work. If that’s what you call LARP, then all training and sports fights are LARP, I suppose.

When we ask others to be honest with themselves, we need to follow our own advice right ?

So where am I not being honest?

cheers
Rob

Rob,

I'm sorry but watching beyond the physical is not the same as watching typical ('mundane') training.
Surely that's a fair point?

And a dictionary definition of Psychology hardly explains anything new regards the training exercise. So we are no better off than we have ever been about this work essentially. I'll try to listen to Grahams interview to see if there's a better explanation to why people fall over when MR does what he does without contact.

I did say as you allow more freedoms, and actively resist it's not playing roles anymore. restrictions are taken away for techniques training and drills, let's just call it those instead of LARP. As clearly i chose a term people aren't happy or comfortable about using.

You are well aware of what makes a compliant drill, a sparring drill, up to 'full' sparring; whatever the ruleset may be.
It's rules so to speak isn't it; there are always things you can and can't do depending on context and ruleset. Then there's the folks that use padding and different things, helmets etc. to allow for certain things. Electric knives I always thought was an interesting idea.

And i have tried "it" as i have trained with you at your class and had a nice time. Like I said i enjoyed it but there was nothing to better inform me of what I watched on the Beyond the Physical tape I used to own many years ago.

Thanks for putting up with my thoughts anyway. No doubt I've been a pain.

[wayne hansen]

Regarding Hatsumi
I had a friend who ran the first martial arts store in Australia
He was a high ranking black belt in Goju under Yamaguci
Studied kali under Rey Galang
Studied Tai Chi under a direct student of YCF
He now runs the Jodo Assn
He met every good teacher who came to Australia and trained with many
Hatsumi was one
He told me how good Hatsumi was but that he wasn’t a Ninja but was a high ranking black belt in many traditional Japanese martial arts
Ninja was just a marketing device to teach all the arts he learned under one banner
He was so good with the short stick and rope techniques

[cloudz]

regards the honest thing.

I guess what i mean is; we can make a video showing how Mizners chi body trickery works. That's something you did. So maybe transparency is a better fit. I'm not accusing you of dishonesty but to me it feels like a case of what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Is that fair ?

We both would probably agree that the empty force clips of Chinese / Japanese style etc. well to put it bluntly; We deem them 'fake'.
Is that not fair; or am i getting that wrong about yourself ?

WW posts tai chi guys who respond in ways that don't add up with the input; many of us question them and consider that it's not realistic or real. That it's somehow exaggerated or they downright play it up.

We both agree on that guy in NY for example, or we did. So if with you, he's just 'typical', then why is he not typical with 'his' people.
These are fair questions i think. After your experience with him, what's your opinion of the people in his clips. What's happening with those poor folks I can only imagine. But i think and suspect the experience is how they want it to be for them.

Can you make us a vid with one of your guys explaining this 'beyond the physical' work as per the MR film, explaining more clearly as in the fashion of your Mizner reveal and the reason for certain responses and so on. Why they are happening and whether they are involuntary as they appear to be and not 'faked'. No doubt i was just being a noob back when i watched it, but i thought he was doing it for real on those guys. Like it was something he might actually be able to do on them against their will. It gives that impression. Like someone watching Mizner Chi film with the MMA guys might think more of it than it really is.

If I could have someone make an explanatory video like your Mizner one but applied to the beyond the physical recording; that explained why the other people are responding the way they are to the gestures he makes.

Well, that would be really lovely. and then as a little bonus perhaps explain in what way it's more useful to him and to them to do those things the way they do rather than 'the typical'.

In a fair world, would that seem a fair request ?

[cloudz]

Regarding Hatsumi
I had a friend who ran the first martial arts store in Australia
He was a high ranking black belt in Goju under Yamaguci
Studied kali under Rey Galang
Studied Tai Chi under a direct student of YCF
He now runs the Jodo Assn
He met every good teacher who came to Australia and trained with many
Hatsumi was one
He told me how good Hatsumi was but that he wasn’t a Ninja but was a high ranking black belt in many traditional Japanese martial arts
Ninja was just a marketing device to teach all the arts he learned under one banner
He was so good with the short stick and rope techniques

I never really trained with my teachers teacher, I saw him only a couple times really. he was bit old by then and had passed it on. In a similar way they did a lot of arts - too many for me. But I know how good my teacher was - he was insanely good, and I have trained with a lot of people in the UK, whether from here or visiting these shores. I learnt a lot .. we just didn't spar/wrestle/free push the way i wanted so I chose to train TCC the CTH way instead.

I had already started down that road a while before i left. But as i could see the all round improvement by adding more all round sparring essentially, I just got bored with the lack of it in the majority of his classes and called it a day. I was having more fun with a training partner for example.

[cloudz]

As I said, I don't really know what else to say. What do you want to hear that is "meaningful?" You move, something blocks your way, you tense or shift to avoid or go round it.

why you would move towards potential danger unprotected is another matter. there are plenty of drills that require evading, people don't think "psychology". Not running into a punch is more like common sense no ?

punches don't 'block your way', they either hit you or they don't.
Or they make you fall over like a floppy fish from 3-4 inches away apparently.
If you are skilled enough according to MR.

this is the whole film; things get a bit funky around the 32 minutes mark. and what i am referring to above with the punches. shortly after he says something like; if you're not skilled enough you may have to put the strike in for real (or similar). Not with those guys i think, anyone else sure. call it what you will Rob.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_3-oPdh63M

[cloudz]

How about illusion ?
il· lu· sion i-ˈlü-zhən. plural illusions. 1. a (1) : a misleading image presented to the vision : optical illusion. (2) : something that deceives or misleads intellectually. b (1) : perception of something objectively existing in such a way as to cause misinterpretation of its actual nature.

[RobP3]

I'm sorry but watching beyond the physical is not the same as watching typical ('mundane') training. Surely that's a fair point?

Depends what you view as typical. Again, for us this is just one thread of the training, we don't see it as anything special

And a dictionary definition of Psychology hardly explains anything new regards the training exercise. So we are no better off than we have ever been about this work essentially.

Again, I don’t really know what else to say. There’s not a snappy one sentence answer to sum up what is quite a deep subject, other than to say it’s working with psychology and awareness

And i have tried "it" as i have trained with you at your class and had a nice time. Like I said i enjoyed it but there was nothing to better inform me of what I watched on the Beyond the Physical tape I used to own many years ago.

Well, you did a class, it was that long ago I can’t remember what we did but I doubt we were doing any no contact work specifically as it was quite a basic session. My point is, if you want to get what MR specifically is doing, then best to work with MR

Thanks for putting up with my thoughts anyway. No doubt I've been a pain.

No worries 
Cheers
Rob

[RobP3]

regards the honest thing.
I guess what i mean is; we can make a video showing how Mizners chi body trickery works. That's something you did. So maybe transparency is a better fit. I'm not accusing you of dishonesty but to me it feels like a case of what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Is that fair ?

But Mizner is claiming “special chi powers” for his work. I’m not.

We both would probably agree that the empty force clips of Chinese / Japanese style etc. well to put it bluntly; We deem them 'fake'.
Is that not fair; or am i getting that wrong about yourself ?

When they are described as “chi power” or “ invisible force,” yes, I believe so


We both agree on that guy in NY for example, or we did. So if with you, he's just 'typical', then why is he not typical with 'his' people. These are fair questions i think. After your experience with him, what's your opinion of the people in his clips. What's happening with those poor folks I can only imagine. But i think and suspect the experience is how they want it to be for them.

My experience, particularly with the hopping thing, is that people are taught to hop as a way to “disperse the energy.” It is a conditioned response. I never had MR or VV tell me I have to react or move a certain way. That’s why you see different reactions from different people.

Can you make us a vid with one of your guys explaining this 'beyond the physical' work as per the MR film, explaining more clearly as in the fashion of your Mizner reveal and the reason for certain responses and so on. Why they are happening and whether they are involuntary as they appear to be and not 'faked'.

Well, if I made a ten minute clip, I’d just be saying the same as I am here, so I think you would be disappointed. I mean I can make one of my guys flinch, move, etc. but people still might say he was faking it. What might be more productive is for me to cover this as a series on my Member Channel, where I would have time to go into more depth, then send you a link. Wouldn’t be til after Xmas though.

But also, I don’t really know what else I can add to MR’s explanations in BTP, don’t the guys talk about what they are feeling at some point too? He also covers the tactile aspect of this work in another film, where he covers the idea of support, moving to less and less contact for throws. Not sure what it’s called though

why you would move towards potential danger unprotected is another matter. there are plenty of drills that require evading, people don't think "psychology". Not running into a punch is more like common sense no

Common psychology

punches don't 'block your way', they either hit you or they don't. Or they make you fall over like a floppy fish from 3-4 inches away apparently.If you are skilled enough according to MR.
; if you're not skilled enough you may have to put the strike in for real (or similar). Not with those guys i think, anyone else sure. call it what you will Rob.

The answer is there. It’s about skill level

Well, that would be really lovely. and then as a little bonus perhaps explain in what way it's more useful to him and to them to do those things the way they do rather than 'the typical'.

But the typical what?

Cheers
Rob