Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby origami_itto on Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:24 am

cloudz wrote:
origami_itto wrote:Bro, I am a mason raised in a lodge with druids, catholics, jews, pagans, thelemites, and assorted hermeticists. I've studied this stuff. I get it.

I don't LARP, and I am definitely insulted when any of my activities are described as such. The closest I've come is the SCA and the whole reenactment thing was just something I tolerated to get to hit people in the head with sticks.

I train by doing exercises. My role is student. I'm american. i wear sweats and dri-weave. There is no part of my practice that is role playing or pretending. I've used the skills I've gained professionally and personally to defend myself and others from direct threat of bodily harm.

now contrast that to this ninja bullshit...

Ninjutsu was if anything a military discipline involving strategy, spying, unconventional tactics that shinobi, who would run away from actual fighting whenever possible, and would backstab and ambush and use long range weapons when not possible to avoid it, studied and used in order to conduct clandestine operations for their feudal lords.

Any martial art associated with a shinobi would be ancillary to that military training. There is no martial art called ninjutsu with any historical credibility.

So when you say you're a ninja, you tell me you're LARPing. You're training in geurilla warfare, spying, and assassination, and maybe some jujutsu and karate, or you're just doing some shit some dude made up by blending jujutsu and karate and branded as Ninja to part you from your coin. In either case, 99% of it is just pretending.


Ok, no worries, i perfectly understand the ninjutsu issues.
The empty hand martial art is Taijutsu by the way. The term Ninjutsu was never used, but again it doesn't bother me. It was what it was, it's behind me now. I think it was 2006, so I last trained at that school more than 16 years ago. I mostly did TCC, some Japanese sword and Aikido. But I take your point the teacher may well have cobbled things together. I wouldn't call it bullshit, but you are welcome to your opinion!

The reason we are even talking about it is that I see parallels, but if you don't think so, we can drop it. But I think they have faced similar accusations as Hatsumi has for example.

We never "Larped" in the sense you are talking about, but we have picked up this term in different contexts, so I get why you may see it that way.

around maybe 15-17 years ago on forums the term was used for any training that simply did not involve sparring or resistence.
Rightly or wrongly that's how i have learnt to use it and think of it.

I've never run around a dark forest with Black Camo!

We just see the term differently. When I see Judo guys drilling a technique i seem the same method. The other guy is allowing the technique. It's how you learn technique.

when you learnt a throw or a lock, you didn't do it against resistance. You had a "dummy"; just so happens to be a human one following a role.
This is what i mean. Traditional arts more often than not using that one step technique training. Adding a few more steps perhaps here and there.

I have for example BJJ privates every week. we basically exercise, train techniques the same way as any other traditional art, then roll.

that's all i mean by it; it's really not my fault it has negative connotations for others. And further it really isn't necessary to impose them on anyone else. It's a choice to take it negatively or positively. Or alternatively I asked for a different term to training that isn't technically sparring, but is training techniques compliantly. I am more than happy to use a different one. But it changes nothing frankly.

With the whole training summation. i think we can all safely assume the person we are talking to has trained in similar ways. i mean how many ways are there really. You drill, you spar, you.... ?? create different situations. from fixed 'role play'/ TT.. towards freedoms.

The training those guys doing your LARP, training wise, they certainly aren't any worse off, that I can see. I hear it can get pretty rough.


LARPing is Live Action Role Playing. It's putting on a wizard costume and throwing tennis balls at a guy dressed like a warrior and screaming "Fireball".

Calling compliant training exercises LARPing is something that I remember the Bullshido guys doing as a way of showing disrespect for the methods.

So yeah, drills is a good term for it. We do drills. We aren't pretending to be other people. We aren't playing at being medieval assassins running through the night in black pajamas. We're training our bodies and minds.

wayne hansen wrote:He told me how good Hatsumi was but that he wasn’t a Ninja but was a high ranking black belt in many traditional Japanese martial arts
Ninja was just a marketing device to teach all the arts he learned under one banner


And you know, if he and the students are happy with that, more power to them. I just find it a bit dishonest because then you get these accountants and programmers running around thinking they're Ninja mystics... or the second coming of Yang Lu Chan.
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby marvin8 on Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:36 am

origami_itto wrote:Calling compliant training exercises LARPing is something that I remember the Bullshido guys doing as a way of showing disrespect for the methods.

So yeah, drills is a good term for it. We do drills. We aren't pretending to be other people. We aren't playing at being medieval assassins running through the night in black pajamas. We're training our bodies and minds.

No, that's not a complete definition of LARPing in the martial arts.

Excerpt from "What Is A Kung Fu LARPer? (Live Action Role Player)"

Dynasty Team on January 01, 2021 wrote:Common Traits of a Kung Fu LARPer:

1. Only theorizes about Kung Fu techniques or concepts ("Qi" force, "internal" mechanics, perceived application of techniques). Will talk a lot in real life or write long essays on the internet fantasizing about said theories, but only trains casually or at a very low intensity.
2. Will tell everyone who disagrees with their theories or "knowledge" that they’re "wrong" (but will provide no further evidence or sources).
3. When questioned / challenged by others to provide proof, they can’t / won’t produce real evidence showing applications of said theory or theories either in sparring or fighting, and will immediately result to ad hominem attacks of anyone questioning.
4. Will ride the coattails of their Kung Fu lineage or Sifu or some other famous master in order to use it as leverage, defense, or to make themselves look good by association, even though they're actually no good themselves.
5. Only talks or trains forms, compliant drills, but never spars or fights. This is okay if you are just a casual practitioner, but for a Kung Fu LARPer, they will claim that this type of training is the only training they need.
6. When asked why they never spar or fight with their Kung Fu, they will claim their techniques are "too deadly", or that their "art is not designed for sport fighting, but for killing". This absolves them from any responsibility to prove that they are any good.
7. Will claim that any form of fighting such as the fighting that occurs in combat sports such as boxing, or MMA, etc. isn't "real" fighting.
8. Considers drills and compliant demonstrations to be the ONLY "real" "true" displays of Kung Fu.
9. Considers non-compliant sparring or fighting to be NOT real displays of Kung Fu.
10. Doesn't realize their own incompetency or inadequacy and that any real martial artist or trained fighter would absolutely destroy them in a real fight (a frog in the well).
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:06 am

Origami half the people you have premoted here shoes courses you have done are guilty of being less than honest
Most people I come across guild the Lilly when telling stories about their training or teachers
The Florida pushing clips you show could be called LARPING in numerous places
I have never trained with Hatsumi but know people of high skill who got a lot out of it
Just trying to give some perspective
The only reason I don’t trick my students is because it causes them to reach a lower level and retards my growth
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby origami_itto on Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:11 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Origami half the people you have premoted here shoes courses you have done are guilty of being less than honest

I'm only promoting Ray and Alex.
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:13 pm

For now
In the past there have been others
Once you say something on the net it stands unless you correct previous statements
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby origami_itto on Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:46 pm

I have never claimed to not be mistaken or change my mind from time to time when presented with good information. Ask me who's good but don't ask me who's bad or why.
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:15 pm

Sorry I must have mistaken what u meant by Larp ninja and systema
I thought you were saying they are bad
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby origami_itto on Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:29 pm

LARP - cosplay and pretending
Ninja - marketing
systema - not bad
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby cloudz on Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:40 am

RobP3 wrote:
But Mizner is claiming “special chi powers” for his work. I’m not.


But.. we're not really addressing 'your' claims necessarily. It's what your teacher and or System claim. Does it not look like a claim of special psychological power or skill when MR has those guys flailing around while he basically pretends to punch them ?


When they are described as “chi power” or “ invisible force,” yes, I believe so


This is the same issue I have with psychology. It's an incredibly broad term, which could mean so many things. Just like under the surface Mizners demonstrations can be explained in a different way. i think the same can apply to MR


My experience, particularly with the hopping thing, is that people are taught to hop as a way to “disperse the energy.” It is a conditioned response. I never had MR or VV tell me I have to react or move a certain way. That’s why you see different reactions from different people.


This is the same narrative; that people react differently. Whilst the reaction isn't 'set', the set up is. The guys he's 'punching' in the section I highlighted are moving towards him in a certain way. They don't have to, but it's part of the drill, they have been coached on how to navigate that drill, what's expected of them and what isn't expected of them. Yes, it's all engineered to create a training tool. Sensitivity, awareness, softness; essentially putting mind before matter.

Do you know what puts mind before matter?
Esoteric Philosophy. It's the Internal way, basically. In this case extended into physical training

Illusion is better than delusion.
Imagination and honesty are key.
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby cloudz on Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:47 am

origami_itto wrote:


And you know, if he and the students are happy with that, more power to them. I just find it a bit dishonest because then you get these accountants and programmers running around thinking they're Ninja mystics... or the second coming of Yang Lu Chan.


Can we add people running around thinking they are modern military special forces to your list.
I'd also like to add the "purveyors of the high standard"; those that like to sit on the council of judgement of what passes and does not as taijiquan.
And last but not least the Sifu silk pyjama Westerners.

:D
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby RobP3 on Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:57 am

But.. we're not really addressing 'your' claims necessarily. It's what your teacher and or System claim. Does it not look like a claim of special psychological power or skill when MR has those guys flailing around while he basically pretends to punch them ?

They are my claims too, though. And again, no-one claims there is anything special or any special power. Any more than the pickpocket guy I referenced earlier claims special powers.

This is the same issue I have with psychology. It's an incredibly broad term, which could mean so many things. Just like under the surface Mizners demonstrations can be explained in a different way. i think the same can apply to MR


It is, but this is a deep subject. We can explain anything as anything I suppose, the proof of the pudding etc etc


This is the same narrative; that people react differently. Whilst the reaction isn't 'set', the set up is. The guys he's 'punching' in the section I highlighted are moving towards him in a certain way. They don't have to, but it's part of the drill, they have been coached on how to navigate that drill, what's expected of them and what isn't expected of them. Yes, it's all engineered to create a training tool. Sensitivity, awareness, softness; essentially putting mind before matter.

That’s a lot of assumptions. And doesn’t explain the people who never trained with MR before. As we said before, any training drill is that, a drill. And if the drill is about sensitivity, etc, why would that not be a component? Most of our drills are two way.

Do you know what puts mind before matter? Esoteric Philosophy. It's the Internal way, basically. In this case extended into physical training

Again, I'm not sure what is esoteric about flinching or working with tension

Illusion is better than delusion. Imagination and honesty are key.

Yes. As I said before. Honesty. But, also again, you are judging from your position another person’s internal response and drawing your own conclusions. That’s fine. When I first saw VV on video I thought his partners fell over way to easily. Then I met him. Now people will say I fall over too easy too lol.

Can we add people running around thinking they are modern military special forces to your list.

Who’s that? Can you point to any of my guys, or the others , who think that? Apart from the actual former / current military ones, obs

Cheers
Rob
Last edited by RobP3 on Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby cloudz on Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:12 am

RobP3 wrote:
They are my claims too, though. And again, no-one claims there is anything special or any special power. Any more than the pickpocket guy I referenced earlier claims special powers.


But on the face of it, the demonstration is the claim, essentially. Same as in the Chinese arts demonstrations

RobP3 wrote:


That’s a lot of assumptions. And doesn’t explain the people who never trained with MR before. As we said before, any training drill is that, a drill. And if the drill is about sensitivity, etc, why would that not be a component? Most of our drills are two way.



maybe it is a lot of assumptions.. If you watch the several minutes of the tape I highlighted, it describes what I am seeing as best to my experience (and understanding)of of both the mental and physical landscape allows.. I don't believe those guys are falling down because they have no choice. I don't believe a flinch reaction or working out some tension causes that directly either. Not on their own. There's a bit more to it.

You can see and hear from what he says, he thinks it's a bit more than those guys simply flinching away from his fist. If you see not more than that, then ok. I'm running out of motivation to explain my point of view as well as ways to repeat similar things from other angles.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby cloudz on Mon Dec 05, 2022 3:26 am

About the people not having trained with MR before and adding people to Origamis' list..

If you ask me, do I think MR has great psychological power, skill and understanding.
My answer would be a resounding yes.

As to the second; well, that comment isn't about anyone in particular, just like the first mentions were stereotypical examples, mine was too. There is more than one "special forces" narrative in the world of self defence marketing..

Did it never happen in anyones wildest dream.
I wouldn't presume to know, and neither should anyone else in my estimation.

Happy training
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby RobP3 on Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:29 am

But on the face of it, the demonstration is the claim, essentially. Same as in the Chinese arts demonstrations

But the claim is not the same, nor is the explanation, nor the purpose.

maybe it is a lot of assumptions.. If you watch the several minutes of the tape I highlighted, it describes what I am seeing as best to my experience (and understanding)of of both the mental and physical landscape allows.. I don't believe those guys are falling down because they have no choice. I don't believe a flinch reaction or working out some tension causes that directly either. Not on their own. There's a bit more to it.
You can see and hear from what he says, he thinks it's a bit more than those guys simply flinching away from his fist. If you see not more than that, then ok. I'm running out of motivation to explain my point of view as well as ways to repeat similar things from other angles.


Yes, there is a lot more to it, as I said it's a deep subject and flinch, etc is the base level. Then there's managing attention, leading, the idea of support, etc, etc. But I can't tell you what the pie tastes like, you have to eat it yourself.

Actually, I would say, to bring us back to the topic, this is another major difference by Systema and TCC. There are no forum threads or discussions like there are here on various theories, terminology, practices, etc. Not to say that things are not talked about, discussed or explained, but that is done in the context of training, mostly with an "here, let me show you." I know that exists in CIMA too, yet this other side seems to have grown over the years. Or is that just tech and were teachers of old engaged in long letter writings? :)

cheers
Rob
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby origami_itto on Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:46 am

cloudz wrote:
origami_itto wrote:


And you know, if he and the students are happy with that, more power to them. I just find it a bit dishonest because then you get these accountants and programmers running around thinking they're Ninja mystics... or the second coming of Yang Lu Chan.


Can we add people running around thinking they are modern military special forces to your list.
I'd also like to add the "purveyors of the high standard"; those that like to sit on the council of judgement of what passes and does not as taijiquan.
And last but not least the Sifu silk pyjama Westerners.

:D

Sure thing!

Though I will confess there is not a lot of actual taijiquan out there.
I'm working on a little over 20 years dabbling at it and I think I can finally see the door. Can't quite knock on it yet, it's probably knocked, I'll probably never see the courtyard. I've just done a whole lot of prep work in case I might get it one day.
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