Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

[windwalker]

For those commenting, how do you comment on something you can’t do and don’t practice.
Often find it confusing, most talk about the underlying concepts by which it works,
yet when any of the principles are shown being put to use at higher levels people start to lose their minds.


In my teacher’s practice, when he demoed on us the feeling itself left a person feeling sick, like they wanted to throw up.

A friend a taiji teacher from the US, brought his student to our practice, my friend wanting reconnect with me, and meet my teacher.

His student a big guy, he wanting to feel some of my teacher's practice.

He almost passed out when my teacher had another student put their hand on his chest and he touched the back of their hand projecting into the student.
It was funny, watching it for those watching, maybe not so much for those experiencing .

In the Systema clip, they specifically give their rationale for why it works, not based on the same theory the Chinese use.

With aiki said to be used in aikido, i’ve been told that the verbiage may be the same, the way it’s used is not.
Do know among the aikidoist that I have felt it’s not the same.

Maybe it was their level....

Whether touched or not, the principles by which it works are the same.....

Like any skill set not all people will develop it to the same degree.
Unlike other skill sets, a lot of depends on inner changes both in mind and body allowing its functional use..
quite difficult trying to adjust something that one has yet to develop a feeling for...

Have met many taiji practitioners, who've locked themselves out from developing it,
because of their ingrained past practice
not able to get past it....

[windwalker]

Sharing some of this, not to convince or justify..

In this thread it came up as part of a comparison between Sytema and taiji.

As a "practice " it is and was part of some of the higher end IMA skill sets noted by different masters
and lines of practices that may or may not focus on them...now


some might find this interesting reading

A: What exactly are the details he was talking about?
C: The details he was referring to were feints and ‘tells’ – both with the hands and feet, and mentally too. Of course, there’s also shen guang long zhao (‘enveloping aura’?).
When you have these elements at your command things get more detailed, richer and fuller.

We use something called casting, like throwing a net over someone...

A: [Wang Xiangzhai’s disciple, now deceased] Ao Shi-peng once told me an anecdote that took place while China was in the thrall of ‘Qigong mania’ [in the 80s].

Ao asked M Yao about the ‘fa gong’ [external release of qi], and asked whether Yiquan could produce this kind of ability too. At first, M Yao was reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, but eventually, seeing that Ao wasn’t going to drop it, sighed and raised his hand.

Bear in mind that Ao and M Yao were separated by a dining table at this point. M Yao lifted his hand and made a very small fa li motion towards Ao’s face. Ao felt as if a large mass of paper had hit his forehead, it scared him witless. Have you ever come across this ability?


C: M Yao was always reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, even in his books he denied it existed in Yiquan.

His intent was not to lead Yiquan students astray.

Actually, the practice of Yiquan can develop this ability. M Yao told me about it in 1978.
That year, in order to study Yiquan with M Yao, I took sick leave dozens of times.
I gave up a lot of other things to practice Yiquan.

https://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009 ... n-part-iv/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShmPuxlehfs

Student: Why is field strength commonly referred to as empty force?
Master Fung: Empty force is a direct translation of 'lin kong jin'. I'm not sure how the term originated....maybe its a reference to how using it feels? Anyway, I don't much care for the term empty force. It gives the idea that there is this separate energy that is being shot out at the opponent, which of course is not the case at all. Field strength does not exist independent of the other aspects of strength. Its not a technique or even a goal from a self defense point of view but more a by-product of proper training.

Student: Can field strength be used for self defense?
Master Fung: Yes, but not in the way you are thinking. Let me be very clear here, field strength is NOT useful for self defense independent of actual strength. In other words never think you're going to defend yourself by controlling opponents with field strength, that is just foolish.

Just the same as it's foolish to think that the increased sensitivity and strength that come with developing the field have no use in self defense, because they do. With field awareness the ability to intercept the opponents strength greatly increases, more leverage can be applied and the strength has a deep penetrating quality.

http://www.yichuankungfu.com/cheuk-fung/empty-force/


Wouldn't agree with some of the teachers thoughts,
do agree with many of his overall view points.

[yeniseri]

No doubt that Yiquanzhuang is powerful but the theatrics of the student is usually quite diferent from the non student.
This is a great art especially when one has the mindset of conditioning and exposure from an excellent teacher!

[windwalker]

No doubt that Yiquanzhuang is powerful but the theatrics of the student is usually quite diferent from the non student.
This is a great art especially when one has the mindset of conditioning and exposure from an excellent teacher!

You know this how ?

Always find the comments like these interesting....

asking out of curiosity..

[wayne hansen]

Bao I agree with what you are saying
JW I was not talking about falling over like a drunk
When someone skill is good they can manipulate anyone of lesser skill into the ready to be beaten posture
Windy How do I know something is bullshit
Simple practicing right method with good honest teachers and skilful partners who seek the truth not fantasy since 1973
The clips shown here are silly at the least and slight of hand along with exploitation of the gulliable

[johnwang]

If you react to any kind of movement, someone acting directly against you, or something coming towards you, you should not practice to react by hopping, falling, or jumping around all over the place acting like a clown.

Agree with you 100% there.

If a teacher taught his students well, why haven't we seen a student to make his teacher to act like a clown? If a skill cannot be duplicated, it's not real.

My student can throw me because I taught her correctly. Should this logic also be able to apply to a Taiji teacher?

[windwalker]

"wayne hansen" wrote
Windy How do I know something is bullshit
Simple practicing right method with good honest teachers and skilful partners who seek the truth not fantasy since 1973
The clips shown here are silly at the least and slight of hand along with exploitation of the gulliable

bullshit, gulliable

Sounds like a colonialist,
trying to tell those from another culture, what they do that one claims to practice from "their" culture

is "bullshit

hope thats not the case...


You know what you have not experienced, by which you have experienced.
ok


"since 1973"


mmm,,,wow long time....kinda like

He had not expected this and in his heart knew that for all his Chen style attainment he just did not have anything close to what Master Wang just demonstrated on him.
So on the wrong side of fifty Master Wei set aside all that he had learned before and began to learn afresh from Master Wang.

https://express.adobe.com/page/WbRbg/

Guess he was just one of those "gulliable" people


1973, good yr about the same time I started my own path...

FWIW only speak from experience, sharing a little of it here....
meeting my last teacher not something, intentionally set out to do..

meeting him through a student in the US....Went to China to meet his teacher.
In doing so,,,He would become my teacher "directly"

Dropped all I thought I knew,,in order to come to an understanding of something I didn't know...having just experienced it.

Admittedly the demos are kind of hooky in some aspects, feeling part of this is because
its something the teachers working with this have used over time,,,,they all tend to show and use the same types of demos...

Might look funny to those on the outside, until one is feeling it directly, might be a little more understandably
whether touched or not the same process are used....


next some might start saying something like acupuncture,
is fake or something

[windwalker]

I agree that your opponent's punch may make you to respond. But 99.9% of the time, you will use body method, or footwork to dodge that attack. You will not fall down like a drunk person with poor balance.

Personally I can actually see value in no touch training, as in building sensitivity and awareness. But the highlighted words illustrates my own criticism. If you react to any kind of movement, someone acting directly against you, or something coming towards you, you should not practice to react by hopping, falling, or jumping around all over the place acting like a clown.


You should practice how to stabilize yourself or evade in a realistic manner. If someone pushes directly against my body, I sink down, stabilize myself. If you train to react against someone, or feeling someone's intent at a distant, your reaction should be the same, reacting by stabilizing and grounding yourself.

Then maybe the practice can have some value. But how some teachers making demos having their students hopping around, they do not only mock them, but Tai Chi-wise, they are teaching them bad habits that would back-fire against a good practitioner or in a real situation.

And I see similar things in Systema and Aikido as well.
The intention might be good or based on building ego, it doesn't matter really, but what many do is building bad habits.

lots of comments on something you and others don't practice or do you ?

You and others do write about the yi, qi, shen ect.....a lot,, lots of writing


JW does show his work,,,kudos for stepping up...

Don't agree with many of his view points but do understand them having went through my own process...

For those not liking the demos, can always make or show those demos they like...

all are demos, training devices nothing more nothing less...

[windwalker]

If you react to any kind of movement, someone acting directly against you, or something coming towards you, you should not practice to react by hopping, falling, or jumping around all over the place acting like a clown.

Agree with you 100% there.

If a teacher taught his students well, why haven't we seen a student to make his teacher to act like a clown? If a skill cannot be duplicated, it's not real.

My student can throw me because I taught her correctly. Should this logic also be able to apply to a Taiji teacher?

"my experience"


Because its not shown, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.....

The difference, one as shown is physical relying on mechanics....

What the teachers do, not based on mechanics, they too are subject to the effects ....

In Taiwan visiting Teachers Lin's group..



while my friends talked with him directly I interacted with some of his students on the side...
They quite surprised when they reacted to some of my small skill set that they were working on..

A skill if true should be as such,,,,

[Bao]

Thanks Wayne and JW.

John, I liked that clip. I let my students throw my around as well. I know that a couple of my former students in my class many years ago left it because I was rough with them and threw them around. Maybe too much. But the thing is that I let them throw me and take me to the ground much more violently than I would do on them. I don't think they appreciated my teaching style.

[Doc Stier]

I always wonder why any of these ongoing debates about style comparisons, no touch abilities, etc, even matter to anyone?

There is never a consensus of opinion regarding such things and, at day's end, all opinions usually have absolutely zero affect on the quality of your own training regimen or on the practical benefits and skills derived from same.

That which is potentially possible and that which is most likely probable are generally not the same thing.

[johnwang]

I let my students throw my around as well.

This is my concern. If you teach MA skill to one student, you have to be his dummy. If your student cannot apply the skill that you taught him on you, it just means that your skill cannot be reproduced.

For some unknown reason, this logic doesn't apply to the Taiji system. Just show me one video that a Taiji student pushes his Taiji teach away, I'll be satisfied.

[johnwang]

I always wonder why any of these ongoing ..., no touch abilities, etc, even matter to anyone?

Because to talk about this kind of clip is fun.

[Bao]

lots of comments on something you and others don't practice or do you ?
You and others do write about the yi, qi, shen ect.....a lot,, lots of writing
JW does show his work,,,kudos for stepping up...
Don't agree with many of his view points but do understand them having went through my own process...
For those not liking the demos, can always make or show those demos they like...
all are demos, training devices nothing more nothing less...

No need to be sensitive, though I understand why and from where you are coming.

I started to say that I actually can see some value in the practice you do. Have anyone else here admitted that?

Seriously, you have stepped up as well. You show what you do and are honest about it. You have a lot of interesting thoughts and ideas and a take on things that I I feel. Personally, I would suggest that you are much more respected here than you assume. People don't always agree, but that is the same for everyone.

You insinuate things about not stepping up, You might be right. But it's unnecessary as I have never attacked you or what you are doing. I understand you more than you think. I understand that your practice and what you show is something extremely personal and that it's sometimes hard for you to share what you do. Honestly, I consider you the bravest of the bunch here, I am not joking,

As I consider you a friend I will explain to you why I am cowardly hiding away from filming myself... First of all, personally speaking, I really hate showing myself on camera and I have a hard time asking people for favors. My second lame excuse is that I have been working a lot the last 15 years or so. From 2009 to 2016 my average sleep was about 4 hours per night. Sure, I had a short vacation in the summers and sometimes I got more sleep in the weekends. But there's the average: 4 hours of sleep per night seven years in a row. Nowadays it's better, I get about 6 Hours sleep in mon-fri and about 7 in the weekends. I can tell you this: My best proof of the quality of my practice is that I have been able to manage this and stay healthy. I don't need anyone to look at what I do and tell me that I am good. I know what I am doing. I just try to share my thoughts and ideas to those few people who are interested in what I have to say. I always try to be honest and I often speak too much and too loudly. And frankly said, I couldn't care less about what people think about me.

[origami_itto]

I always wonder why any of these ongoing debates about style comparisons, no touch abilities, etc, even matter to anyone?

There is never a consensus of opinion regarding such things and, at day's end, all opinions usually have absolutely zero affect on the quality of your own training regimen or on the practical benefits and skills derived from same.

That which is potentially possible and that which is most likely probable are generally not the same thing.

Indeed, Sifu, so much interest in the leaves and branches and no concern for nurturing the root.

I try to get what's near before worrying about what's far. We'll get to it when we get to it, right?