The real reason Taijiquan has such a bad rap.

[origami_itto]

In push hands being able to pop somebody back is just one kind of jin. The good stuff is just keeping them consistently off balance so you can do what you want with them. Move them where you want, put them on the ground, kick em, hit em. It sucks to be on the receiving end.

How can you

- put them on the ground,
- kick em,
- hit em,

if you have pushed your opponent 15 feet away?

He's not trying to hurt the guy. Look at 0:13, he has full control of the other guy's body and could do whatever he likes. He's playing around. That's what those pushes are for, play and specific tactical purposes. They aren't the be all end all.

But what if it's fifteen feet away, five feet from the edge of the Lei Tai? Into a short fence or table? A chair? Into traffic?

[johnwang]

Look at 0:13, he has full control of the other guy's body and could do whatever he likes.

At 0.13, he is pulling his opponent in. If we are talking pulling, I agree. But people prefer to talk about pushing instead of pulling.

[wayne hansen]

If you can’t see the guy in the clip is just playing with the other guy you shouldn’t be talking about fighting

[johnwang]

If you can’t see the guy in the clip is just playing with the other guy you shouldn’t be talking about fighting

It's easy to see that clip is just playing. That's not the point. The point is the valuable Taiji combat skill is on the pulling and not on the pushing. When you pull your opponent in, you can

- punch him,
- kick him,
- lock him, or
- take him down.

[wayne hansen]

U can do all that if u push him
It’s how you push him

[origami_itto]

Look at 0:13, he has full control of the other guy's body and could do whatever he likes.

At 0.13, he is pulling his opponent in. If we are talking pulling, I agree. But people prefer to talk about pushing instead of pulling.

Right there, plain as day for anyone to see, a shoulder stroke to dude's face (as just one example) would have ruined his day.

How many different ways could you throw somebody who is off balance and bent forward that close to you with both hands on their wrists? And also looks like he's got the setup for a leg technique...

This is basically the only way I understand Taijiquan fighting. I bridge, take control, do what I want, or they keep control and it gets a little more challenging, lol. The whole "dukes up" stance is just a setup to get that contact.

If there's something better beyond that, man, can't wait till I get there.

[windwalker]

It is interesting what people see.
In the gif. is the person being "pulled" or is he trying to recover his balance....?

While true one can do anything after the balance has been disrupted...
If the strategy depends on this wouldn't the main point in a "demo"
be to show the level that this can be done.

The levels that it can be done, after contact, during contact, before contact....

make it quite interesting..

[LaoDan]

I agree with John that too many TJQ practitioners overemphasize pushing during PH. The goal, for me, is to off-balance or destabilize the opponent in ANY direction. During practice, this is enough and remains safe for both participants. Fighting is different; after off-balancing, destabilizing, controlling, gaining the advantage…, then one would attack (striking, throwing, breaking…). During PRACTICE, pushing over some distance gives some indication of how destabilized you were able to get your partner (it indicates that they are unable to recover quickly), but in FIGHTING one wants to destabilize within controlling range (or one can move with the destabilized opponent so as to stay withing striking range) so that an attack can follow the destabilization. While valuable for many practice conditions, I also think that too many TJQ PH practitioners overemphasize fixed step practice. For fighting, one needs to move with the pushed opponent in order to continue one’s attacks, rather than pushing them out of range (unless you are pushing them into something that can injure them).

[windwalker]

Look at 0:13, he has full control of the other guy's body and could do whatever he likes.

At 0.13, he is pulling his opponent in. If we are talking pulling, I agree. But people prefer to talk about pushing instead of pulling.

Right there, plain as day for anyone to see, a shoulder stroke to dude's face (as just one example) would have ruined his day.

How many different ways could you throw somebody who is off balance and bent forward that close to you with both hands on their wrists? And also looks like he's got the setup for a leg technique...

This is basically the only way I understand Taijiquan fighting. I bridge, take control, do what I want, or they keep control and it gets a little more challenging, lol. The whole "dukes up" stance is just a setup to get that contact.

If there's something better beyond that, man, can't wait till I get there.

定之方中足有根先明四正進退身掤捋擠按自四手須費功夫淂其真身形腰頂皆可以粘黏連隨意氣均運動知覺來相應神是君位骨肉臣分明火候七十二天然乃武並乃文
When standing centered, your feet should be rooted.


Start by understanding the four primary techniques, then advancing and retreating.
The four techniques are

ward-off, rollback, press, and push.

You have to do a lot of work to get them to be real.

shown and used in the gif.

掤進捋退自然理陰陽水火相既濟先知四手淂來真採挒肘靠方可許四隅從此演出來十三勢架永無已所以因之名長拳任君開展與收歛千萬不可離太極
It is natural to ward off while advancing and roll back while retreating,
since passive and active, like water and fire, exchange roles with each other.

First understand the four primary techniques and get them to be authentic,

then you may move on to plucking, rending, elbowing, and bumping,

performing the four secondary techniques on the basis of the primary.


The Thirteen Dynamics solo set flows on and on ceaselessly,
and hence is called Long Boxing. [“It is like a long river flowing into the wide ocean…”]
You may spread out and gather in as you will,
but by no means allow yourself to stray from the taiji concept.

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... i-fa-shuo/

There is a strategy, methodology to the training and the demos that people use to show their skill sets.

To judge them outside of this can lead to confusion, and can be misleading,

[Doc Stier]

I agree with John that too many TJQ practitioners overemphasize pushing during PH. The goal, for me, is to off-balance or destabilize the opponent in ANY direction. During practice, this is enough and remains safe for both participants. Fighting is different; after off-balancing, destabilizing, controlling, gaining the advantage…, then one would attack (striking, throwing, breaking…). During PRACTICE, pushing over some distance gives some indication of how destabilized you were able to get your partner (it indicates that they are unable to recover quickly), but in FIGHTING one wants to destabilize within controlling range (or one can move with the destabilized opponent so as to stay withing striking range) so that an attack can follow the destabilization. While valuable for many practice conditions, I also think that too many TJQ PH practitioners overemphasize fixed step practice. For fighting, one needs to move with the pushed opponent in order to continue one’s attacks, rather than pushing them out of range (unless you are pushing them into something that can injure them).

Agreed on all points. Your comments nicely summarize what I was taught on how to apply TCC/IMA to realtime fighting. In my experience, it works very well. Nice post!

[Doc Stier]

I would also add that anyone who has been on the receiving end of these methods is generally left with a very healthy respect for the combat efficiency and reputation of authentic traditional IMA styles.

[windwalker]

I would also add that anyone who has been on the receiving end of these methods is generally left with a very healthy respect for the combat efficiency and reputation of authentic traditional IMA styles.

Presumably, most here, say they study or practice taiji, wouldn't or shouldn't they know this...


Why is "fighting" even being discussed, clearly not what is shown......
why are the methods and theories never compared to what is shown....

CMA in general has / had a bad rap,,,something that hopefully for most, they help to clear
when engaging with others....something I've done for awhile....since the 70s....

Taiji a little different part of CMA, having the distinction, of being "internal" with practitioners going out of their
way to make this distinction shown through demos that for those watching looking or questioning them don't come across to well...

For those having the skill sets or working with them,,,should be very clear

It's like brick breaking demos.....no one talks about them as being fighting....
Yes there are those that fake them, and others who do not..

They all tend to look and show the same things...most understand something very physical, as something that either can be done or as an indication
of something that might be useful as part of a "martial " encounter

Taiji demos in gen. fall into the same type of categories, with noted teachers "all" demoing the same aspects understanding that
it's something that many expect to see....and so demo it...a skill set that may be useful if "true"

a little different then breaking bricks in that, the reactions are questioned....instead of material used broken...
Looks easy until one tries to break one,,,


funny....

[marvin8]

I agree with John that too many TJQ practitioners overemphasize pushing during PH. The goal, for me, is to off-balance or destabilize the opponent in ANY direction. During practice, this is enough and remains safe for both participants. Fighting is different; after off-balancing, destabilizing, controlling, gaining the advantage…, then one would attack (striking, throwing, breaking…). During PRACTICE, pushing over some distance gives some indication of how destabilized you were able to get your partner (it indicates that they are unable to recover quickly), but in FIGHTING one wants to destabilize within controlling range (or one can move with the destabilized opponent so as to stay withing striking range) so that an attack can follow the destabilization.

Depends on one's meaning of "push." Ren pushes (threatens) his opponent to the back foot with jab-cross (yin), then intercepts, pulls (grabs) and issues. A sequence I have shown multiple times:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjoecjvEgTk&t=10s

... Rokas fails to grab Jesse, because Jesse is able to yield by pushing off his front foot.

Similarly in BJ Penn vs Lyoto Machida, Machida:

1. Zhan — controls and pressures with push/pull (peng/lu) movement 2. Nian — extends arms (peng) and adheres, as Penn reacts by rolling back (lu) 3. Lian — continues to join, as Penn shifts forward (ji) 4. Sui — remains relaxed, lures and follows Penn's incoming force, then issues (fa) foot sweep and pushes down (an):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdvOfCz6_tk&t=9m23s

In BJ Penn vs Lyoto Machida, Machida:

1. controls distance with push/pull footwork, then circles left luring (yin) Penn to turn and follow (control/na) 2. hand fights and listens (ting) for Penn to weight the back foot 3. neutralizes (hua) incoming force by issuing (fa) foot sweep and pulling down:

In Usman vs. Edwards 2, Edwards:

1. feints right jab, left cross to lure (yin) Usman to evade right (control/na) 2. senses (ting) for Usman to double weight 3. changes (hua) while Usman's weight is on the back foot 5. issues (fa) left roundhouse head kick KO with lower shin:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ-ewfKLJpY&t=26m21s

While valuable for many practice conditions, I also think that too many TJQ PH practitioners overemphasize fixed step practice. For fighting, one needs to move with the pushed opponent in order to continue one’s attacks, rather than pushing them out of range (unless you are pushing them into something that can injure them).

It's more realistic to have one partner (feeder) do sanda (e.g., kick, punch, etc.) while the other pushes, rather than both just push.

[johnwang]

It is interesting what people see.
In the gif. is the person being "pulled" or is he trying to recover his balance....?

It's clear to see that his left hand pulls his opponent's right wrist. That cause his opponent's body to spin forward.

What I'm trying to say is, Taiji has so much good pulling skill that boxing, Karate, ... don't have. But in most of the Taiji training, the pulling skill is not emphasized.

[windwalker]

It is interesting what people see.
In the gif. is the person being "pulled" or is he trying to recover his balance....?

It's clear to see that his left hand pulls his opponent's right wrist. That cause his opponent's body to spin forward.

What I'm trying to say is, Taiji has so much good pulling skill that boxing, Karate, ... don't have. But in most of the Taiji training, the pulling skill is not emphasized.

you are correct, old eyes,,,missed it...

Maybe feeling it was something like what we practice not using a grab..didn't really look for it.... ..

IME, its the same,,,,not about what is done....
more like how its done....


Used to have a student who was the son of a famous boxing gym owner in SF.....
Newman's Gym , Gorge Forman used to train there.

https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv/bundles/190440


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdcQ17i7IWQ&t=115s


He wanted me to help his son who boxed amateur level with clinching feeling that some of the taiji skill sets would be useful for that situation.

As some may know, in boxing there are lot of restrictions, regarding hitting surfaces, and any attempt to control the arms directly...