The real reason Taijiquan has such a bad rap.

[johnwang]

Do you think this can be real?

How did you make this large size gif file? I only know how to create a small size gif file.

[windwalker]

@ marvin8


no pushing involved

whether touched or not,,,the "process" by which it works is the same....

Basic theory outlined

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan

神、意、氣要能通出體外，並能回到體內。把神、意、氣通出體外，這是技擊練法不同於養生 練法的最主要之點。意氣通出體外，能"穿透"對方身體。要注意，意氣通出後，一定要沿原路 收回，進行"內外氣交換"增強功力。如果不收回，就要傷內氣。


Spirit, mind, and qi must be able to pass out of the body and return to the body. Let the mind, mind, and qi out of the body, this is the most important point that martial arts training method is different from health preservation training method.

The mind and energy go out of the body and can "penetrate" the opponent's body. It should be noted that after the mind-qi is released, it must be withdrawn along the original path to carry out "exchange of internal and external qi" to enhance the power. If you don't take it back, you will hurt your internal gas.

自己的神魂有沒有出體，這得問問對方。 初始階段，當你和對方牽手時，如果對方感覺虛弱，說明內勁已經到了對方。 經過學習和練習，你會逐漸能夠“聽”、“問”、“拿”、“放”，意氣風發，練功。
打。

Whether one's spirit has passed out of the body, you have to ask the other party. In the initial stage, when you hold hands with the other party, if the other party feels weak, it means that the inner energy has reached the other party. After learning and practicing, you will gradually be able to "listen", "ask", "take", and "let go" with high spirits and practice skills. hit.

.

Interesting work,,,takes time to develop

btw, got a link on how to make the gif....very cool.

[Subitai]

Do you think this can be real?

How did you make this large size gif file? I only know how to create a small size gif file.

I gotta answer you John...

Johnwang wrote:
Do you think this can be real?

NO I DO NOT!!! (Just Speaking out loud ) but are you F?????? Kidding me with that crap? If a guy could move me back without touching i'd quit Martial Arts forever.
==================================================

Aside from that,

I gotta ask a question because i'm confused... I know you told me this once before, so pardon me for checking again.

Marvin8, you said your identity was "Zhang Weili " the MMA Champ?

I ask because i'm really surprised by some of the stuff you post here.

You are Joking with the video you posted of those 2 Corn Flakes pretending to apply some sort of No Touch energy.

YOU Are joking right? You couldn't possibly be serious?

I mean come on guys...someone has to step up and say it

[origami_itto]

Do you think this can be real?

How did you make this large size gif file? I only know how to create a small size gif file.

I gotta answer you John...

Johnwang wrote:
Do you think this can be real?

NO I DO NOT!!! (Just Speaking out loud ) but are you F?????? Kidding me with that crap? If a guy could move me back without touching i'd quit Martial Arts forever.

Okay, so, even if we grant that such a thing is indeed realistic and possible, we then have to ask the question... what is the point? To make someone standing in a neutral relaxed and receptive state go up on their tippy toes for a second?

Is this the BEST they have got?

Like... I can put a grown man on the ground with two fingers, what is this tippytoe bullshit?

[windwalker]

Okay, so, even if we grant that such a thing is indeed realistic and possible, we then have to ask the question... what is the point? To make someone standing in a neutral relaxed and receptive state go up on their tippy toes for a second?

Is this the BEST they have got?
Like... I can put a grown man on the ground with two fingers, what is this tippytoe bullshit?

one question,,,do you or others understand, know, or use the concept of "qi"

Similarities

Quote from the old transmissions about Yang Luchan:

"Yáng replied that there were three types of people against whom his style was useless. When Zhāng asked what these types of people were, Yáng replied: "The bronze people, the iron people, and the wooden people. It's hard to fight with them, but with the rest it's easy."


PS. This is not waving the flag for "empty force" in its narrower sense.

good quote,,the context is quite interesting

the context

Yang's first opportunity to meet the Chang family and demonstrate his martial art was during a banquet that hosted multiple martial arts teachers.
Chang thought little of Yang's ability due to his small build and decided that Yang did not "look" like a boxer.

Yang was served a very simple dinner and, as an insult, placed behind an ordinary martial artist preparing to demonstrate.

After Yang demonstrated his "Cotton Fist" style, Mr. Chang asked if it could actually defeat an opponent.
The question was a veiled insult since he had invited Yang on the basis of his reputation as a great fighter.

Yang answered that except for men of bronze, men of iron, and men of rock his Fist style could defeat men of flesh and blood.

http://shaolintemplemi.org/yang-luchan- ... chuan.html



Why do so many speak on things they don't do, can not do or have not interacted with...

might want to start with a simple idea

Empty force . 空力 "kong li" is not volley jin "凌空勁"
commonly refereed to as "empty force".
Jin in this case is not the same as the word force in English..

very basic and simple,,,,

the same can be understood with

意 Yi, translated as "intent" is not the same as the English use of the word intent...

Its different something that can be developed and used...
As is often repeated yi, leads the qi, qi motivates the body..

Most talk about it as with some of the things mentioned, many write about it, very few can do what they write about..

waving the flag,,,for "empty force"

might be better to understand its only part of a greater whole...
whether touched or not the "process "
used is the same...

Rob, has given his reason for the differences, as Gorge pointed out the same could be said for those
who's practices "Chinese" in this case are questioned based on a different "theory" of use...

In this sense I see little difference,

good discussion btw...

https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... &start=240

[Appledog]

In Chinese there is a concept known as 試應手 shi4 ying4 shou3; the "yose-miru", or (sorry, wrong word) I mean, "yosu-mi", in Japanese. It means "asking hand". So now you must understand, regarding push hands, the only way to win is not to play.

I was able to replicate the demonstrations shown above (excerpt "volley jin") in just 3 rounds of push hands today (with my son). However in doing so I had to violate some of the tennets of our school (of tai chi).

One day I demonstrated the application of "Parrying Downward" in our fan form; you lift your left leg and simultaneously parry down with the right hand fan; the effect is much like "play the pi-pa" except you engage your core a lot more due to the use of the knee. I didn't think I was using any force; I was completely relaxed, yet I feel like I almost broke her arm. It was embarrassing for me and I was very sorry. Luckily, she was okay. The lesson is you need to be careful of your strength. If I had engaged the core at all I probably would have snapped her elbow like a twig. It scared me. Therefore we must remain humble and do not try to "win" but we use "asking hand".

Chen Fa-Ke said, "Just relax and follow the movements. I will pay more attention, and it should be all right." He also said, "It is unacceptable to hurt people when teaching push-hands."

In Chen Tai Chi, we have a type of push hands in which one "shakes hands" and then falls into pu bu and moves the hand across the leg. This is in response to, what if someone does large rollback, or, what if someone does "tiger pounce" from si ba (i.e. uses play the pi-pa and drops down into bow stance or snake creeps down stance) -- now in such a case you can follow them.

If you get ahead of your partner and push him into a place where he cannot go, this is the time in which it is dangerous for him and he can get hurt.

In conclusion, if the most interesting thing about push hands is when nothing happens, then what is going on when people get tossed out?

And so, maybe, empty force is just a red herring.

[marvin8]

https://imgur.com/2sehEXi.gif

Do you think this can be real?

I don't think that's a big deal. Because, skilled fighters can use yin, ting, na, hua without contact anyways. The politically correct answer is "I suspend my judgment until I see it in sparring or a fight."

So if you train, you have the ability to shut down. But if you don't train, you can shut down by default. So what's the advantage of such training?

Per Henry Wang Tai Chi School, Wang's "no touch" training does not work on an unwilling (resistant) opponent. Per Casey,

The stuff in the video of me I can do to to other martial artists to varying degrees. Doing it in a competitive/martial environment would never make any sense. That kind of stuff is always for demoing/practicing stuff....

I'm not sure why people are so focused on competitive/martial utility of this stuff. For any competitive situation it is BY FAR better to focus on the foundational skills of that format. As for martial utility, like in the streets, it would be completely useless in serious situations.

How did you make this large size gif file? I only know how to create a small size gif file.

I use GOM Player to capture frames. Then, load frames into Adobe photoshop. The gif normally comes out larger. However when saving, you can customize the image size. Usually, I input 538 w x 303 h for my own viewing.

I gotta ask a question because i'm confused... I know you told me this once before, so pardon me for checking again.

Marvin8, you said your identity was "Zhang Weili " the MMA Champ?

My humor, because you were talking as if I wasn't there. You'd have to go back and look at the context.

I ask because i'm really surprised by some of the stuff you post here.

You are Joking with the video you posted of those 2 Corn Flakes pretending to apply some sort of No Touch energy.

YOU Are joking right? You couldn't possibly be serious?

I mean come on guys...someone has to step up and say it

I posted it because wayne hansen and johnwang were discussing "the evident lack of skills" and "puffy jackets." It reminded me of windwalker (your main "Corn Flake" ) doing his thing in a winter jacket.

[johnwang]

If a guy could move me back without touching i'd quit Martial Arts forever.

When my teacher was still alive, one day I asked him this question. He said, "I have traveled around China from north to south all my life. I have not met a single person who could move someone without touching. If in your generation that you can find someone who can do such thing, I just wonder which secret hole that this person just cralwed out?"

Long fist GM Han Ching-Tang tried to challenge Yang Chen-Fu and was stopped by the head of Central Guoshu Institute (中央国术馆) Zhang Zhijiang 张之江. If you demonstrated such "no touch combat", people would challenge you right away. Even the Taiji master Yang Chen-Fu who had never demonstrated such thing back in his day.

If Yang Chen-Fu didn't have such ability, many generations down from him suddently someone could do this. What does that mean?

[origami_itto]

Okay, so, even if we grant that such a thing is indeed realistic and possible, we then have to ask the question... what is the point? To make someone standing in a neutral relaxed and receptive state go up on their tippy toes for a second?

Is this the BEST they have got?
Like... I can put a grown man on the ground with two fingers, what is this tippytoe bullshit?

one question,,,do you or others understand, know, or use the concept of "qi"

Not like that. I stick to observable, repeatable, and falsifiable methods and results.

[windwalker]

Okay, so, even if we grant that such a thing is indeed realistic and possible, we then have to ask the question... what is the point? To make someone standing in a neutral relaxed and receptive state go up on their tippy toes for a second?

Is this the BEST they have got?
Like... I can put a grown man on the ground with two fingers, what is this tippytoe bullshit?

one question,,,do you or others understand, know, or use the concept of "qi"

Not like that. I stick to observable, repeatable, and falsifiable methods and results.

Are you saying "qi" has been scientifically proven using your matrix.

Would be interested in reading the study...

AFAIK it hasn't been....but is part of a very large body of knowledge originating in China based on it.

Same could be said for acupuncture.....based on TCM...

Thanks for your answer btw... it's one I always find kinda strange...putting limitations on something that has yet to be "proven"

Does this mean anything to you

汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan


要以意行氣，以氣運身。用意則能"養"用力則"傷"。
Use Yi to move Qi, use Qi to move your body. Use Yi nourishes and use force causes harm.

Would you agree with it ?

This teacher has an explanation that might make sense for some...

Student: What about push hands and bouncing exercises where no contact is used?
Master Fung: You're talking about field strength exercises. You know field as in 'magnetic field'. Field strength exercises are used for the same purpose as other push hands and bouncing exercises....to help us appreciate and develop our strength.

http://www.yichuankungfu.com/cheuk-fung/empty-force/

The field he mentions is referred to as a "qi-chong" or field of "Qi" that surrounds the body, based on whats called "wei-qi" or protective qi
that is thought to protect the body from outside influences.

This is what is moved / affected. If one follows the theory...if this field is moved or affected, it will cause a reaction on the person...
The tendency for the body, is to maintain this field, how this is done seen in the many reactions that most question..
not really a force as some suggest.


Echoing Henry Wang, among others working with the same concepts...

The question of reality ?

Is "Qi" real....

according to some it is but "Not like that"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTIqtLa35kc

If Yang Chen-Fu didn't have such ability, many generations down from him suddently someone could do this. What does that mean?

It might mean

Second tier transmission was to relatives and third tier to close friends and outsiders vouched for by someone on the inside. If the master had no son to pass the skills to then he would adopt a son who may take the family surname to continue the art under the family name.

For the rest i.e. the ordinary disciples and students it is normal that they will not be taught the complete syllabus nor offered explanations of the keys to developing their skills to the highest level.

The Yang family particularly Yang Chienhou kept their treasure close to the chest. When Yang Chienhou was teaching in the 4th Prince's dwelling it was said that any discussion of the art with his son, Yang Shaohou was carried out when there were no outsiders around and they talked in a hushed manner, never writing anything in ink, but using water to write out the strokes of the Chinese characters so that no record remained after the water dried out.

https://express.adobe.com/page/WbRbg/



Some might find this interesting reading

A: [Wang Xiangzhai’s disciple, now deceased] Ao Shi-peng once told me an anecdote that took place while China was in the thrall of ‘Qigong mania’ [in the 80s]. Ao asked M Yao about the ‘fa gong’ [external release of qi], and asked whether Yiquan could produce this kind of ability too.

At first, M Yao was reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, but eventually, seeing that Ao wasn’t going to drop it, sighed and raised his hand. Bear in mind that Ao and M Yao were separated by a dining table at this point. M Yao lifted his hand and made a very small fa li motion towards Ao’s face.

Ao felt as if a large mass of paper had hit his forehead, it scared him witless.

Have you ever come across this ability?

C: M Yao was always reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, even in his books he denied it existed in Yiquan.



His intent was not to lead Yiquan students astray. Actually, the practice of Yiquan can develop this ability. M Yao told me about it in 1978.
That year, in order to study Yiquan with M Yao, I took sick leave dozens of times. I gave up a lot of other things to practice Yiquan.

https://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009 ... n-part-iv/


A practice based on an understanding and usage of "Qi"

[origami_itto]

In short I don't believe in Qi as some kind of particular force or energy. It's used to describe various processes, qualities, substances, and paradigms and I find it is much more rewarding to focus on those separate things the term Qi is used to describe than it is to conflate them all into an idea of a singular substance or force or energy that does absolutely everything everywhere all at once.

If something can be demonstrated, observed, and measured, then it's worth considering. Haven't run into anyone in person that has done anything I can't explain with simple physics, so why would I need to involve Qi?

[windwalker]

In short I don't believe in Qi as some kind of particular force or energy. It's used to describe various processes, qualities, substances, and paradigms and I find it is much more rewarding to focus on those separate things the term Qi is used to describe than it is to conflate them all into an idea of a singular substance or force or energy that does absolutely everything everywhere all at once.

If something can be demonstrated, observed, and measured, then it's worth considering.
Haven't run into anyone in person that has done anything I can't explain with simple physics,
so why would I need to involve Qi?

Really not about what you or I believe...more about what one knows or has experienced.

Your understanding of Qi is not correct,,,something you should consider...

Not here to convince you, or anyone else, the things I work with/on are
well documented, align with the larger community, culture, that it originate from.



I can read many post here, referring to what is shown, talking about yi, qi, shen ect....
As long as its written down, allowing one to have their own interpretation in their mind, It's OK.

When shown examples of the reality of it in use, its not

Anyway,,,interesting conversation....

good luck with your practice...

[everything]

I don't think that's a big deal. Because, skilled fighters can use yin, ting, na, hua without contact anyways. The politically correct answer is "I suspend my judgment until I see it in sparring or a fight."

when you don't have any idea what you're talking about (whether you know it or not ... an exercise left for the reader), a very wise, prudent answer, does not matter whether or not it is "politically correct".

[marvin8]

I don't think that's a big deal. Because, skilled fighters can use yin, ting, na, hua without contact anyways. The politically correct answer is "I suspend my judgment until I see it in sparring or a fight."

when you don't have any idea what you're talking about (whether you know it or not ... an exercise left for the reader), a very wise, prudent answer, does not matter whether or not it is "politically correct".

I do have an idea. Skilled fighters:

1. lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go where you want him to go,
2. listen: feel or detect what the opponent want to do,
3. hold or control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced)
4. melt or dissolve: neutralize the attacking force

I've repeatedly replied to strawman and ad hominem arguments in detail along with videos. Please discuss specifically what you mean by "you don't have any idea what you're talking about."

[Trip]

How did you make this large size gif file? I only know how to create a small size gif file.

Hey John,
Photoshop is excellent but has a bit of a learning curve.

You might wanna give this GIF maker a try.
https://www.aiseesoft.com/video-to-gif/
It's simple & Free.
You just drag and drop your video.
It's automatic or just Press settings and use one of their presets
like
640 x 360
640 x 480
704 x 586 etc.

but you can put in almost any size you want AND you save your custom sizes as a preset
I tend to use
720 x 480
1280 x 720