the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

see title. I always think I do this, but really, it seems hard to tell. what is the feeling? have you learned it in dance? did you do it the same way? etc.

After warmups/jibengong, where I work on loosening up the spine in various ways, I stand as straight as possible. Sometimes a little bit of force at first just to get into the right alignment.

Once in the right alignment, I work on relaxing all the muscles involved down to my tailbone and pull down with my tailbone as I tuck it into place. It's more like letting the weight of it stretch the spine, because my head is being pulled up.

Sometimes when I get the tailbone set right I'll feel a wave of the vertebra adjusting all the way up my spine, it's kind of freaky.

The feeling is just open, not stretched, not tense. There's a springiness to it.

It can help to look for it in seated meditation, IMHO.

There's a movie called either The Tai Chi Master or Tai Chi II depending on who is distributing it starring Jacky Wu where he's some random fictional Yang and his father Old Yang makes him stay in a room and study all day with his Queue tied to the rafters.

I'm working on being conscious of that at all times, not just when I'm making a point of it in meditation. Everything feels better when I've got it right.

I was just writing about this for a blog post. In the research I found a quote from Wang Xiang Zhai's 1929 book The Correct Path of Yi Quan:

頭頂如懸磬
The headtop is like a hanging chime.
〔頭為六陽之首，五關百骸，莫不本此，頭頂若懸，三關九竅易通，自能白雲朝頂，一點靈光頂頭懸，亦禪學之要素也〕。
(The head is the source of the six channels of active energy. The five sense organs [eyes, ears, nose, tongue, lips] and the whole skeleton are based in this place. When the headtop seems suspended, the three sections of the spine and the nine orifices of the body will have a smooth energy flow, and so you will naturally be able to have “white clouds facing the headtop”, or a halo hanging over your head. This is also a key principle of Zen teachings.)

origami_itto wrote:Sometimes when I get the tailbone set right I'll feel a wave of the vertebra adjusting all the way up my spine, it's kind of freaky.

The feeling is just open, not stretched, not tense. There's a springiness to it.

It can help to look for it in seated meditation, IMHO.

I think that's interesting. What I've found is if you just stack blocks on top of each other and try to make adjustments it will never be quite right and will fall over like jenga. Now, there are 26 vertebrae in the spine, and I think I can balance something like 13 or 14 jenga blocks on top of each other, max, before they tip over.

What I've found is that if they are connected, like with a string through them, and they can bend around, say like a wooden snake -- then it's much easier to get them to line up when they go straight. But maybe this is because it's not necessarily about suspending your head from above but rather about the ability to bend and still remain connected. And standing up straight is just a facet of that.

We have a set of seven daoyin exercises in my lineage which trains the spine to do this. As you mention if the foundation is not correct then what sits atop it cannot possibly be correct.

One is straightening the spine exercise.
Two is bending back exercise.
Three is interlocking fingers pushing up the sky, but we've added a kind of bend or stretch to it.
Four is twisting (the arms make the "4" shape so it's easy to remember)
Five is opening the chest area.
Six is bending like a 6 shape.
7 is bending like a 7 shape. So it's easy to remember.

If you do these exercises I think it points you in the right direction. The specifics aren't magical, I am just pointing out that there needs to be a jibengong which points you in the right direction or you will just guess. Being told to "suspend the head..." is meaningless without being told how to do it (and I don't mean tucking in the chin, I mean without having a specific daoyin to inform it).

Appledog wrote:I think that's interesting. What I've found is if you just stack blocks on top of each other and try to make adjustments it will never be quite right and will fall over like jenga. Now, there are 26 vertebrae in the spine, and I think I can balance something like 13 or 14 jenga blocks on top of each other, max, before they tip over.

That was my first method, like bend over then straighten and stack each vertebra on top of the other, but that results in a tight misaligned mess that you still have to stretch out.

If you do these exercises I think it points you in the right direction. The specifics aren't magical, I am just pointing out that there needs to be a jibengong which points you in the right direction or you will just guess. Being told to "suspend the head..." is meaningless without being told how to do it (and I don't mean tucking in the chin, I mean without having a specific daoyin to inform it).

The jibengong definitely is critical. Developing bending and looseness in all, let's call it four, directions. Twisting. Traction. Stretching and popping from the tailbone to the crown.
Hong Sheng Shyan's 5 Song Gong exercises work on this a lot.

origami_itto wrote:After warmups/jibengong, where I work on loosening up the spine in various ways, I stand as straight as possible. Sometimes a little bit of force at first just to get into the right alignment.

Once in the right alignment, I work on relaxing all the muscles involved down to my tailbone and pull down with my tailbone as I tuck it into place. It's more like letting the weight of it stretch the spine, because my head is being pulled up.

Sometimes when I get the tailbone set right I'll feel a wave of the vertebra adjusting all the way up my spine, it's kind of freaky.

The feeling is just open, not stretched, not tense. There's a springiness to it.

Yup. You've got it correct. "Suspending the head as if from above" is just the natural movement of your own body when it relaxes. The body wants to stretch and reach tall. The body will do this by itself if you just let it be.

The best way to get a hang of, IMO, it is standing in a simple wuji posture and just relax the body as much as possible, trying to feel all of the body and its tensions through awareness.

Bao wrote:

origami_itto wrote:After warmups/jibengong, where I work on loosening up the spine in various ways, I stand as straight as possible. Sometimes a little bit of force at first just to get into the right alignment.

Once in the right alignment, I work on relaxing all the muscles involved down to my tailbone and pull down with my tailbone as I tuck it into place. It's more like letting the weight of it stretch the spine, because my head is being pulled up.

Sometimes when I get the tailbone set right I'll feel a wave of the vertebra adjusting all the way up my spine, it's kind of freaky.

The feeling is just open, not stretched, not tense. There's a springiness to it.

Yup. You've got it correct. "Suspending the head as if from above" is just the natural movement of your own body when it relaxes. The body wants to stretch and reach tall. The body will do this by itself if you just let it be.

The best way to get a hang of, IMO, it is standing in a simple wuji posture and just relax the body as much as possible, trying to feel all of the body and its tensions through awareness.

Right on, and also, of course, how could I forget... Alex Dong's fundamental Qigong also addresses this. http://alexdongtaichi.com/store/

Really interesting, thanks a lot.

(from quick reading) in ballet and other dance they talk about a "plumb line" and seem to hold some tension (at first?) to have it:



https://www.shenyunperformingarts.org/b ... ancer.html says similar sounding things:

Everyday in dance class, we spend five minutes just standing. This is no ordinary standing, though—it’s the most valuable standing we do all day.

Basically, you stretch vertically as tall as you can: really press down with your feet while reaching towards the ceiling with the top of your head. No tensing up, though. Oh, remember to breathe.

to me, (maybe wrong/overeager), this seems to use a little "force", and it's easy to feel like it's too much (a little past a subtle feeling, and my neck gets tense).

This carrying practice also seems like the opposite of "relax" (at first glance; I guess they must do this more easily after a while) and is of course for other reasons:


or posture practice for etiquette:



But if you put a very light book (like a magazine) on your head, you do seem to "stand up straighter" without much "force". this doesn't seem like it necessarily feels like the head is "pulled up", though. It seems like you "push". Well, in reality, there is not actually something there to pull.

There seems to be some similarity/overlap, and surely they are not "wrong" for what they are doing. I don't think they have the idea that

"An insubstantial energy leads the head (upward)."

for example.
What is your compare/contrast of those kinds of postural practices vs. your taijiquan or MA practice?

It's not that you're being pulled up, per se, it's that you, as Bao said, are relaxing the muscles keeping your spine compressed and crooked and allowing the natural space between the vertebra to exist. It's the same "opening" we're looking for in the arms and the legs, kwa, IMHO. Altogether this becomes peng.

As far as achieving it, something they say not to do in CMA but that western folks and even Yoga masters recommend is holding tension first, breathing in deeply, then releasing the tension on the outbreath. Imagining the pulling from above and the lower half hanging.

If you're thinking about pushing up and stacking you're not creating that space.

everything wrote:Really interesting, thanks a lot.

(from quick reading) in ballet and other dance they talk about a "plumb line" and seem to hold some tension (at first?) to have it:



https://www.shenyunperformingarts.org/b ... ancer.html says similar sounding things:

Everyday in dance class, we spend five minutes just standing. This is no ordinary standing, though—it’s the most valuable standing we do all day.

Basically, you stretch vertically as tall as you can: really press down with your feet while reaching towards the ceiling with the top of your head. No tensing up, though. Oh, remember to breathe.

to me, (maybe wrong/overeager), this seems to use a little "force", and it's easy to feel like it's too much (a little past a subtle feeling, and my neck gets tense).

This carrying practice also seems like the opposite of "relax" (at first glance; I guess they must do this more easily after a while) and is of course for other reasons:


or posture practice for etiquette:



But if you put a very light book (like a magazine) on your head, you do seem to "stand up straighter" without much "force". this doesn't seem like it necessarily feels like the head is "pulled up", though. It seems like you "push". Well, in reality, there is not actually something there to pull.

There seems to be some similarity/overlap, and surely they are not "wrong" for what they are doing. I don't think they have the idea that

"An insubstantial energy leads the head (upward)."

for example.
What is your compare/contrast of those kinds of postural practices vs. your taijiquan or MA practice?

In taiji the knees are often bent, so the alignment I was taught is ears, shoulders, hips, and ankles are in line. With suspending the headtop, tailbone is straight/aligned, yao (lower back) is relaxed, there is a light stretch through the spine, so the back is connected top to bottom. Also, shoulders relaxed, elbows drop, and chest contained relate to suspending the headtop, and the six yang channels meeting at the headtop. It's difficult to discuss sensations, you really need hands on corrections from a qualified instructor.

everything wrote:
What is your compare/contrast of those kinds of postural practices vs. your taijiquan or MA practice?

Not what nor why the concept is used nor how its expressed...

What was shown are based on structural requirements to show or facilitate...a look, "ballet" or load carrying ability..."loads placed on the head"

The basic idea to remove the bends in the spine facilitating the inner "qi" flow connecting the 2 major meridians
One way to drop the hips by a slight tuck...along with some other alignments...

Is it natural, no...

can it become so,,,yes once a body/mind feeling awareness is developed.
Once developed the path way is opened...no longer a requirement as the mind/body will find this the
new natural posture.


edited: this might be a little easier...to understand.

9 orifices Can u name them
Huangs 5 work but not the way they are taught today
Better is his 7 point push but not the day it is taught today
Ballet alignment with locked knees changes the whole equasion

wayne hansen wrote:9 orifices Can u name them
Huang's 5 work but not the way they are taught today
Better is his 7 point push but not the day it is taught today
Ballet alignment with locked knees changes the whole equation

Is this correct?

wayne hansen wrote:9 orifices Can u name them

nine orifices of the human body: (eyes [2], nostrils [2], ears [2], mouth, urethra, anus)

I forgot the eyes thanks
According to PK,s student no
Saying that I like the original order and method
Same with the 7 point push
I can explain why I do them in that order and manner as opposed to the way they are done today
With the 7 point push the order ,way and hands you push with are all important
Why they changed I don’t know
The one thing I do know Huang didn’t go to the trouble of making a film just to trick people