4 oz & 1000 lbs

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby origami_itto on Sat Dec 17, 2022 7:04 am

This is an often cited relationship but the explanation seems to vary widely. The TYPE of relationship even seems to change.
Defeat 1000lbs with a trigger force of 4oz vs turning on 4oz we can weigh 1000 lbs.
It's that second part that I'm chewing on today.

When Cheng Man Ching was asked about 4oz defeating 1000lbs he said it was like a rope through a ring in the nose of a bull. The soft pull at a sensitive place motivates the living creature to move where we want it and it can't use its immense strength.
In practice, many players strive to put only 4oz of pressure on their opponent at any time, or allow no more than 4 oz to land on them.

I was going through "Yang Family Secret Transmissions" and musing on the songs. (Side Note: I must be feeling emotional because the Song of Split brought actual tears to my eyes...)

The Song of Pull-Down
How can we explain the energy of Pu ll-down ?
Like weighing something on a balance scale,
We give free play to the opponent's force
whether great or small .
After weighing it we know its lightness
or heaviness .
Turning on only four ounces,
We can weigh a thousand pounds .
If we ask what is the principle behind this,
We discover it is the function of the lever.


I don't speak or read chinese and while I have access to the original text I don't know where it is in the collection of completely unindexed pages of chinese text.

The key point I'm focusing on is the possible different meanings of weigh.
Earlier in the song it refers to weighing something to find it's weight/force/energy. In the second context "We can weigh a thousand pounds" can mean we find the weight OR we can apply a force equal to that weight.

The accompanying picture shows the hapless student fully extended with Yang Cheng Fu holding his wrist down.
Image

This should be self evident, even a small load applied at the extreme end of a lever will exert a force that increases the closer one gets to either side of the fulcrum. The opponent's arm is the lever, their waist is the fulcrum. Yang Cheng Fu is applying the load the far end of the lever, the waist cannot hold against that force. In context Yang Cheng Fu would create this defect position by leading and pulling.

The other side of that is lifting, such as in a posture like "play guitar" in some applications.
Image

The main idea is that our opponent is extending into our space giving us a huge lever to use to manipulate their body.
In this case how I see it is in response to a pull on our right arm, we yield to it briefly, then with the right wrist pull their arm into our sphere of control, put our left hand on the elbow, then pull down on the wrist and push up on the elbow as we sit our weight into the back leg. With a good connection it will feel like throwing a shovel full of dirt.

This works due to levers on levers on levers in the movement and application, the sinking into the back leg powers both the pulling down of the right arm and the lifting of the left arm, so you're starting this force equation with a mass equal to your weight moving, multiplying that force through the mechanical advantage of the lever action of your arms inside your body (stand like a scale, move like a wheel... two applications of the lever), and then multiplying the effect of those forces through the mechanical advantage gained by expressing that force in opposing vectors and applying it to your opponent's ready-to-be-beaten posture, i.e. their weak extension into your sphere of power and control.

I tried to diagram that but I got lost in the arrows and labels, you'll have to just envision it yourself looking at Yang Cheng Fu's glorious Dad bod.

Oh, and the teary part of split was this

Whirlpools appear in swift flowing streams ,
And the curling waves are like spirals .
If a falling leaf lands on their surface ,
In no time it will sink from sight .
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby everything on Sat Dec 17, 2022 8:58 am

I'd claim there is "4 oz" at work through that entire arc; it's not "4 oz" only at the endpoint of the arc when the pull-down is going on, but at the beginning, and then continuous through the move.
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/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby robert on Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:41 am

Here is the text from Wu Gongzao's taijiquan manual.

採勁義何解。如權之引衡。任你力巨細。權後知輕重。轉移祗四兩。千斤亦可平。若問理何在。幹捍之作用。
What is meant by “plucking”?
It is like the counterpoise of a steelyard scale sliding out to balance something.
No matter how great or small the opponent’s force is,
you will know the weight of it once it is balanced.
Even the shifting of a mere four ounces
can balance out a thousand pounds.
What is the theory behind this?
That of the lever.


Steelyard balance

Image
Last edited by robert on Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:04 am

It is everywhere not just in Pull Down
It must be passed on from hand to hand
If your teacher doesn’t have it you can’t find it
All tai chi is just a result of listening energy
Beyound that it is 4 tales applied to your own body in all situations solo form especially
When you break it in one place it is broken every place
It is better to train with a young child than a skilled opponent who uses strength and tricks
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby everything on Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:46 am

Young kids or sport settings will give you a more honest push for sure
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby windwalker on Sat Dec 17, 2022 12:43 pm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQsBJRTPPJc

outlines it pretty good....

Old Taiji Master teach the essence of Taiji in the park[

He talks about force leveling system

3 internals and 3 externals having to be harmonized

The question some might ask...

why 4oz
is it relative or absolute to the incoming force :)
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Dec 17, 2022 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby robert on Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:11 pm

Here is a fairly literal translation of the Chinese.

採勁義何解。
Cai (to pluck) jin means how to split/break.

如權之引衡。
As if extending a weight to measure.

任你力巨細。
It doesn't matter to you if the force is large or small.

權後知輕重。
Your back is aware if it is light or heavy.

轉移祗四兩。
Shift four ounces.

千斤亦可平。
Able to level (balance) a thousand pounds.

若問理何在。
Investigate the principle of where.

幹捍之作用。
The function is to ward off/defend.
Last edited by robert on Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby windwalker on Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:52 pm

for contrast...

What this teacher is demoing is different from the concept of 4 oz...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULcaV1IsAw8

My arm weighs 10 kg I should be able to add 10kg to it


Dunking boxing sounds good ;D

Never learned or study the method

Have done it a few times, :P
Mornings never good
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Dec 17, 2022 4:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby origami_itto on Sat Dec 17, 2022 2:51 pm

robert wrote:Here is a fairly literal translation of the Chinese.

採勁義何解。
Cai (to pluck) jin means how to split/break.

如權之引衡。
As if extending a weight to measure.

任你力巨細。
It doesn't matter to you if the force is large or small.

權後知輕重。
Your back is aware if it is light or heavy.

轉移祗四兩。
Shift four ounces.

千斤亦可平。
Able to level (balance) a thousand pounds.

若問理何在。
Investigate the principle of where.

幹捍之作用。
The function is to ward off/defend.


So that seems to track more with how I'm understanding it. We're applying "four ounces" with leverage to balance the 1000 lbs of force. Not specifically quantitatively , but like yin and yang one is more than the other, perhaps extremely so.

Pull down is just one direction for this to happen, right? It's even mentioned specifically in Li I Yu's writing that "pull down must use real power, for a light touch is ineffective"

But the point is that when force is applied, we can change the fulcrum and, in addition to spoiling their power, generate superior force with less strength.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby Bao on Sat Dec 17, 2022 4:34 pm

First you need to know that numbers in China can have a general meaning or symbolic meaning. Like "hundred" can be used as "many". As in "The hundred schools of thought".

So 4 ounces setting 1000 lbs in motion is not exact measure, it only means that you use something light to set something very heavy in motion.

Yes, like leading, guiding and re-directing.

It also says that your touch must be very light and that you cannot offer any resistance. It cannot be any pressure at any contact point. If you always keep a very light touch and offer no resistance, you can easily guide his movements because he will have nothing to attach his own strength against. If you rely on keeping your "frame" and "structure" against his pressure, you will never get there. Your opponent should feel like he is "waving his hands in clouds".
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby Appledog on Sat Dec 17, 2022 6:29 pm

wayne hansen wrote:It is everywhere not just in Pull Down
It must be passed on from hand to hand
If your teacher doesn’t have it you can’t find it
All tai chi is just a result of listening energy
Beyound that it is 4 tales applied to your own body in all situations solo form especially
When you break it in one place it is broken every place
It is better to train with a young child than a skilled opponent who uses strength and tricks


Well, since you brought it up, there appears to be some contention over this point. My teacher strongly insinuated that it is possible to get to this level and even beyond, under certain circumstances, given certain training methods -- and even to go beyond it. One of the requirements is having a couple of students or regular training partners.

Now, I totally agree that passing down from hand to hand is a massive shortcut but I do not believe that it requires several lifetimes to acquire this skill. The question is if someone is willing to do what it takes to get there and the answer is usually no, even if the long method has been preserved. Which is the question. How then must it be passed down from hand to hand? Is it because the long method takes too long, or because there is no long method? I've had some nice experiences via touch, but nothing I feel that I could not get to on my own. Then again, there is this issue that now I've felt certain things, I know what to look for to a certain extent.

The other thing I'll emphasize here is that the oral tradition seems to go way beyond things like qi into some real outer space material. I don't know if it is true or not but it is likely to be real and that would imply you don't necessarily need passing down via hands.

Still lots of mysteries no matter how deep you go :)
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Dec 17, 2022 11:05 pm

Not a short cut
The only path

I wrote something similar to you Bao
The only thing I have to add is

4 defeats a thousand but returns that thousand with 4 added
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby GrahamB on Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:28 am

Hey,

Only read as far as the Song of Pull down bit, but it seems to me that the song is not talking about weighing things - that's just an application. The song is about leverage.

Remember what Archimedes said about that:

"Give me a place to stand on, and I will move the earth."

quoted by Pappus of Alexandria in
Synagoge, Book VIII, c. AD 340

Image

The arts that will teach you the most about leverage are all grappling arts - Suai Jiao, Judo, BJJ, etc..

For an example of leverage in marital arts - look how much pressure is required to break the elbow at the end position of the armbar - you could say that it's about..... 4 oz.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbBQKkq9lLA
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun Dec 18, 2022 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Dec 18, 2022 1:38 am

You are right those arts are about leverage
Tai chi is not
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby GrahamB on Sun Dec 18, 2022 2:29 am

Tai Chi is not only about leverage. Judo is not only about leverage. No martial art is only about leverage.

However, the Song of Split is about leverage. Like it or not, Wayne.
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