4 oz & 1000 lbs

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby Quigga on Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:41 am

5 sense gates I get. 8 gates I don't (only 7 orifices in the head). If 8 gates refer to the Bagua, I don't know much about that. Up down left right forward back, contracting/inside expanding/outside would be my first guess. Maybe adding rotation with the spine as pivot point, each vertebrae being allowed to move. And twisting/turning of limbs. Maybe add some salti and summersaults for fun lol.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby origami_itto on Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:14 am

wayne hansen wrote:A bit to scientific for a simple man like me
Not 5 directions but 5 gates

Okay so what is the significance of the difference?

I've seen them as five directions/steps/elements, and I consider them in terms of footwork but also fighting strategies.. maybe tactics is a better term... gambits?

The eight gates/directions/jin of the bagua are the hand techniques (but it has nothing to do with hands) we employ using the strategies of the directions.

And, like you, some call them gates...

So what to you is the significance of calling it a gate vs a direction or element?
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:49 pm

Direction is external to the body
Gates (I don’t even like that term) let’s say attitudes is internal to the body
Within the foot space not outside of it
When I first started pushing with my teacher when compromised I would step out of my foot space
He pointed to the corner of the room and said
If you can’t protect this space what makes you think you can protect that space in the corner
Or for that matter any space anywhere
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby Kelley Graham on Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:29 pm

To my view, the interesting aspect of TaiChiChuan is that you accept the force coming in. You never say no to whatever the opponent wants to do. As the force begins to touch your center(s) they slide around on the inside. Very small displacement. It takes what feels like 4oz to affect any center. If more than 4oz lands, oops. This requires great, yeah, I’ll say it, internal strength and very specific mental focus and physical conditioning. In order to do anything meaningful, like neutralize/transform, apply the 5 elements etc. this basic mechanism must be well developed. This is where yielding ends. In my experience as a teacher, this kind of conditioning, to separate the bones and meat, is too difficult and demanding for most practitioners. As for the metaphor of the bull, this applies directly. My 2 cents.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby Quigga on Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:54 am

Hey Kelly, that's very interesting. Are you saying that in the past, people trained with a literal bull? That would be pretty hardcore.

If more than 4 oz touches any of your centers, you failed to yield properly?

Re separating muscles and bones - how does that work together with the classic requirement of uniting tendons/fascia and bones?

Kind thanks.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby Bao on Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:06 am

Kelley Graham wrote:To my view, the interesting aspect of TaiChiChuan is that you accept the force coming in. You never say no to whatever the opponent wants to do. As the force begins to touch your center(s) they slide around on the inside. Very small displacement. It takes what feels like 4oz to affect any center. If more than 4oz lands, oops. This requires great, yeah, I’ll say it, internal strength and very specific mental focus and physical conditioning


Sure, this works against unskilled people in a PH setting. Easily.

However, if you let skilled people close inside your own space, letting them touch your center, you can't expect your opponent to do nothing. When you change, they will adapt to your change and change accordingly. A good player always thinks ahead and understand the opponent's possible response to an action.

If you play PH against skilled people or if you spar against someone with a reasonable speed, it's different. Then you can't afford waiting to do something until they occupy your space. Instead, you need to know how to follow and adapt even on distance. At distance, as soon as your opponent move and change, you should be aware about it and adapt to the change accordingly.

This is what the classics mean by: "If my opponent moves slightly, I move first." You need to be aware of every slight move your opponent does and have an understanding of distance and angle. You need to not only understand close PH range, or "grappling range" but also know how to adapt to your opponent within "punching range" and from a "kicking range" distance.

Generally speaking, the biggest problem I see with Tai Chi people is that many only think about actual use of tai chi from a push hands perspective. If you want your tai chi to work in fighting/combat situations, you really need to be able to bring your tai chi and your whole thinking outside of this bubble.
Last edited by Bao on Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby marvin8 on Fri Dec 23, 2022 6:26 pm

Bao wrote:
Kelley Graham wrote:To my view, the interesting aspect of TaiChiChuan is that you accept the force coming in. You never say no to whatever the opponent wants to do....


Sure, this works against unskilled people in a PH setting. Easily.

However, if you let skilled people close inside your own space, letting them touch your center, you can't expect your opponent to do nothing. When you change, they will adapt to your change and change accordingly. A good player always thinks ahead and understand the opponent's possible response to an action.

If you play PH against skilled people or if you spar against someone with a reasonable speed, it's different. Then you can't afford waiting to do something until they occupy your space. Instead, you need to know how to follow and adapt even on distance. At distance, as soon as your opponent move and change, you should be aware about it and adapt to the change accordingly.

This is what the classics mean by: "If my opponent moves slightly, I move first." You need to be aware of every slight move your opponent does and have an understanding of distance and angle. You need to not only understand close PH range, or "grappling range" but also know how to adapt to your opponent within "punching range" and from a "kicking range" distance.

Generally speaking, the biggest problem I see with Tai Chi people is that many only think about actual use of tai chi from a push hands perspective. If you want your tai chi to work in fighting/combat situations, you really need to be able to bring your tai chi and your whole thinking outside of this bubble.

Agree with the concepts mentioned. Mark Li shows the jab-cross as having the same mechanics as xinyi and the pull-counter as an application of brush knee. Lopez is using yin, ting, na and hua (general objectives, not taiji) to set up his right hand. They both are shifting weight (however subtly) between the back foot (lu) and front foot (ji).

Can anyone explain (besides myself) how the push hands positions/circle (e.g., lu/ji), weight shifts, stepping, timing and/or fighting skills enabled Lopez to land his right hand? It's more of an objective (math/physics) answer. (I will add that Lopez could have slipped the punch then pushed, instead.)

marvin8 wrote:Lopez starts with weight loaded on the back foot. Commey tries to punch Lopez's head located on the back foot. However, Lopez moves his head to over the front foot—simultaneously slipping Commey's punch and knocking down Commey:

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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:20 pm

Who is Lopez
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby marvin8 on Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:29 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Who is Lopez

Teofimo Lopez is the Mexican guy that is knocking down Richard Commey. He beat Vasiliy Lomachenko.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:29 pm

Thanks I don’t get to see that stuff
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby Kelley Graham on Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:04 pm

Quigga wrote:Hey Kelly, that's very interesting. Are you saying that in the past, people trained with a literal bull? That would be pretty hardcore.

If more than 4 oz touches any of your centers, you failed to yield properly?

Re separating muscles and bones - how does that work together with the classic requirement of uniting tendons/fascia and bones?

Kind thanks.


I have no idea if people trained with bulls. :) agreed, hardcore. You’d only get to make one bad mistake. The leading of the bull metaphor is, for me, twofold. The rope and the leading. The rope is placed in a place that allows small force and changes to lead. The rope is your ability to apprehend your own centers in order to get the opponents. The leading must be done in such a way that the bull is placid and quiet. This won’t work on an angry bull. However, people aren’t bulls and there is a part of people that you can contact that is quiet even when they are aggressive and upset.

As for yielding, no. The skill of yielding to which I refer is that letting the force in is mental first. This is why it’s a high skill and works for fighting. A good fighter will read your resistance wherever you say ‘no’. Now you have lost the advantage. Becoming transparent to the incoming force provokes your response. He moves first, I arrive first. Separating bones and meat, not bones and muscle, is how I present this process. How you arrive first is done by not interfering with the ‘bone response’. The bones change first, then the meat. There’s about 5-7 years of deep and hard work between the ‘end of yielding’, that is a meat response, and the beginning of ‘bone response’.

Uniting tendon, fascia and bones is a mental process driven by specific changes in the sensorium arising from ‘separating bones and meat’. It’s one aspect of those 5-7 years of bitter training.
Last edited by Kelley Graham on Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby Appledog on Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:31 pm

marvin8 wrote:Can anyone explain (besides myself) how the push hands positions/circle (e.g., lu/ji), weight shifts, stepping, timing and/or fighting skills enabled Lopez to land his right hand? It's more of an objective (math/physics) answer. (I will add that Lopez could have slipped the punch then pushed, instead.)


I don't understand how to answer your question. I keep running through push hands positions in my mind and trying to understand how any of them could be applied to this fight. If you are talking about finding an opening in the opponent's position after establishing a bridge, feeling it out, etc. that is not the thing that is being trained in tai chi push hands. If you mean wing chun sticky hands, maybe, but in the video I don't see any contact being made; he 'telegraphs' the movement with a giant hop and then punches him in the face. Peng and lu can't be used because there's no touch feedback from the opponent.

Now I am not an MMA fighter but to me it looks like he saw an opening and got a lucky strike. He probably had his eye on the right hand after all those left jabs and was just waiting to counter. Just a guess.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby marvin8 on Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:17 am

Appledog wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Can anyone explain (besides myself) how the push hands positions/circle (e.g., lu/ji), weight shifts, stepping, timing and/or fighting skills enabled Lopez to land his right hand? It's more of an objective (math/physics) answer. (I will add that Lopez could have slipped the punch then pushed, instead.)


I don't understand how to answer your question. I keep running through push hands positions in my mind and trying to understand how any of them could be applied to this fight. If you are talking about finding an opening in the opponent's position after establishing a bridge, feeling it out, etc. that is not the thing that is being trained in tai chi push hands. If you mean wing chun sticky hands, maybe, but in the video I don't see any contact being made; he 'telegraphs' the movement with a giant hop and then punches him in the face. Peng and lu can't be used because there's no touch feedback from the opponent.

I'm talking about push hands (sort of) without contact. Lopez is using yin, ting, na and hua (general objectives, not taiji) to set up his right hand. Lopez made contact before the opponent could plant his front foot and finish his right hand, in between a lu and ji position.

Thanks, some may just wait until contact is made. Professional fighters train both non-contact and contact skills. I believe a person who only has skills at contact are at a disadvantage against one that understands both non-contact and contact skills. However, others may differ.

Appledog wrote:Now I am not an MMA fighter but to me it looks like he saw an opening and got a lucky strike. He probably had his eye on the right hand after all those left jabs and was just waiting to counter. Just a guess.

No, Lopez lured the right hand from Commey. it was more developed skill than luck. Lopez threw a jab -> jab feint/footwork -> right hand. It would take more time to explain the details.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby johnwang on Sun Dec 25, 2022 8:10 pm

marvin8 wrote:I'm talking about push hands (sort of) without contact.

I'm not sure what you are talking about is the same training that I have done.

- I throw a punch.
- My opponent tries to block it.
- Before my opponent's blocking arm touches my arm, I pull my punch back.
- I then use the same arm and punch him on the other side of his arm.

In other words, I use my punch to cause my opponent to block. My opponent's blocking opens himself up. I then take advantage on it.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby Quigga on Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:04 am

Hey Kelley, thanks for the clarification.
Last edited by Quigga on Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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