4 oz & 1000 lbs

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:20 am

It shows how little you understand about tai chi
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby origami_itto on Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:06 am

wayne hansen wrote:It shows how little you understand about tai chi


Well it kind of is and it isn't, right?
I mean, right off the top, we get "stand like a scale, move like a wheel" and as I previously mentioned, those are both applications of the simple machine "the lever".
The pull down and shovel throw applications are just one way, but I believe a big part of this involves using the principle of the lever to accomplish neutralization and force generation primarily by allowing the force to create a lever and then changing the fulcrum, or by rotating around the center of gravity of the mass we're affecting.
And, of course, the center of gravity is not always inside the body.(Fosbury Flop)
So these two ideas in particular are what I believe makes Taijiquan so confounding on the receiving end. We are essentially changing their understanding of the world in an instant and things aren't working the way they expect them to. Stepping off a curb you didn't know was there, expecting one more step at the top of the stairs, opening the door inwards just as we start to push it, picking up a full gallon pitcher of water that is actually almost empty, picking up a cup to drink water and it's strong sweet tea...

I don't believe that anybody alive has perfect understanding of the intricacies of the system. I think that sharing our perspective and understanding is more helpful in increasing understanding for everyone than simply dismissing others as ignorant, but that's just me. :D
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby robert on Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:45 am

origami_itto wrote:Well it kind of is and it isn't, right?
I mean, right off the top, we get "stand like a scale, move like a wheel" and as I previously mentioned, those are both applications of the simple machine "the lever".

I think so, since a balance scale has a pivoted horizontal lever. That makes it a little confusing to discuss. The Chinese in The Taijiquan Treatise is interesting.

立如枰凖。活似車輪。偏沈則隨。
Stand like a scale, look like a wheel, lean, sink, follow.


But scale isn't scale, it's 枰凖 - a level chessboard. Check out the character for level - 凖. That's brilliant.
Last edited by robert on Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby windwalker on Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:49 am

origami_itto wrote:I don't believe that anybody alive has perfect understanding of the intricacies of the system.

I think that sharing our perspective and understanding is more helpful in increasing understanding for everyone than simply dismissing others as ignorant, but that's just me. :D


thats you,,, :o


really ;D
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Dec 18, 2022 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby windwalker on Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:17 am

robert wrote:
origami_itto wrote:Well it kind of is and it isn't, right?
I mean, right off the top, we get "stand like a scale, move like a wheel" and as I previously mentioned, those are both applications of the simple machine "the lever".

I think so, since a balance scale has a pivoted horizontal lever. That makes it a little confusing to discuss. The Chinese in The Taijiquan Treatise is interesting.

立如枰凖。活似車輪。偏沈則隨。
Stand like a scale, look like a wheel, lean, sink, follow.


But scale isn't scale, it's 枰凖 - a level chessboard. Check out the character for level - 凖. That's brilliant.


Quite interesting


anther translation


Do you know the experience of this image? Actually is the center, He completes a measurement value. So as when you practicing, every time in your training each of your postures, you see! Always said…Say what this sentence that is “FORCE LEVELING SYSTEM”.
What is LEVELING?

That is Scales, in each movement is the scale moving. What is shifting? Shift our body center point, look at this when I move, What is the actual? Look! Sinking shoulder and elbow.....shoulder and elbow. Balance on the center of gravity, you still flexible....still can flexible. It flow from where?

This process could be thought of like a game of "chess" ie positioning to gain the best advantage.

This shoulder flowing, to the other shoulder. After finish flowing look at this time postured, it’s ready! Now INTENTION, QI... is the key point. So now when an action is done, what’s we add in?

As everyone said we must “EXTERNAL THREE COOPERATION”. Shoulder and waist, Hand and foot, elbow and knee,

after placed, the “EXTERNAL THREE COOPERATION” Cooperated.

When you release it, it will be "INNER THREE COOPERATION”


You do every action the same, Look at it.... come back! Every action is the same, you see! Actually it is here start transform, you see coming here later. Look, his pushed over here, Up to this step, transform now. Transformed, transform to upper part, this hand (Left) is fixed.

If you reach here still keep pushing (Left) then this is “HARD HAND”. Therefore, it is "YANG" (Positive) move and "YIN" static, Remember this main point. YANG move, YIN is static. In our push hands it mean like this too. In our push hands it mean like this too YANG move, YIN is static.

Everyone watching, so when this hand is covered, it is “static”.

Don't use it to push! When I want to hit him it’s my YI, QI. YI, QI! YI, QI. Don't mind him, your finger...

When your finger touched him, you look at your own finger. You look at your fingers and like your lips self-merging, where got so many word!


Of course for those not feeling the "Qi" and "Intention" or feeling it can not be used in this way :P ,,,it still may not explain anything. ;D


note: this is not quite correct

you look at your own finger. You look at your fingers and like your lips self-merging, where got so many word!


If you look at your own finger as suggested,,,the intent will stop there...if its focused on the finger...

The finger, is used as a type of method or way, that helps the mind to project the intent through the finger in the direction pointed to...
If one looks it's quite common to see this used, among those who use this method
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:09 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby GrahamB on Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:05 pm

" I think that sharing our perspective and understanding is more helpful in increasing understanding for everyone than simply dismissing others as ignorant, but that's just me. :D"

I agree. If I had a penny for every legend-in-his-own-lunchtime martial arts teacher who as diagnosed me as not knowing what I'm talking about by text messages over the Internet, then, well, I'd have enough to buy you a pint. ;D
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:16 pm

It says stand like a scale not move like one or operate like a scale
Move like a wheel
Says it all
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby Bao on Sun Dec 18, 2022 2:26 pm

wayne hansen wrote:those arts are about leverage
Tai chi is not


wayne hansen wrote:It says stand like a scale not move like one or operate like a scale
Move like a wheel
Says it all



Agreed.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby origami_itto on Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:09 am

robert wrote:Here is a fairly literal translation of the Chinese.

採勁義何解。
Cai (to pluck) jin means how to split/break.

如權之引衡。
As if extending a weight to measure.

任你力巨細。
It doesn't matter to you if the force is large or small.

權後知輕重。
Your back is aware if it is light or heavy.

轉移祗四兩。
Shift four ounces.

千斤亦可平。
Able to level (balance) a thousand pounds.

若問理何在。
Investigate the principle of where.

幹捍之作用。
The function is to ward off/defend.

Where might I be able to find the rest of the songs with this translation?
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby robert on Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:35 am

The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:57 am

T T Liangs original book has a good translation of the original 8
But I like the one above
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby origami_itto on Wed Dec 21, 2022 6:10 pm

wayne hansen wrote:It says stand like a scale not move like one or operate like a scale
Move like a wheel
Says it all

I've really been investigating this, particularly in connection with the back leg.

The wheel produces translational motion and is essentially a lever. When a wheel is rolling, the part that touches the ground is completely motionless but everything else is moving. If it's powered by torque through the axle then it is functioning as a class 3 lever if I'm thinking right. It's always leverage of some sort.

But it isn't just "one thing" that's what always derails the discussion. The waist is an axletree, right? 5 directions and 8 gates = free circle.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Dec 21, 2022 6:35 pm

A bit to scientific for a simple man like me
Not 5 directions but 5 gates
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby Quigga on Thu Dec 22, 2022 12:15 am

That's a really cool hint, thanks Wayne.
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Re: 4 oz & 1000 lbs

Postby Doc Stier on Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:34 am

As I was taught, we train to defend and fight using 5 directions and 8 gates or 8 doors. I have been training others to do likewise since 1973. ymmv
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