the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

It shows how little you understand about tai chi

wayne hansen wrote:It shows how little you understand about tai chi

Well it kind of is and it isn't, right?
I mean, right off the top, we get "stand like a scale, move like a wheel" and as I previously mentioned, those are both applications of the simple machine "the lever".
The pull down and shovel throw applications are just one way, but I believe a big part of this involves using the principle of the lever to accomplish neutralization and force generation primarily by allowing the force to create a lever and then changing the fulcrum, or by rotating around the center of gravity of the mass we're affecting.
And, of course, the center of gravity is not always inside the body.(Fosbury Flop)
So these two ideas in particular are what I believe makes Taijiquan so confounding on the receiving end. We are essentially changing their understanding of the world in an instant and things aren't working the way they expect them to. Stepping off a curb you didn't know was there, expecting one more step at the top of the stairs, opening the door inwards just as we start to push it, picking up a full gallon pitcher of water that is actually almost empty, picking up a cup to drink water and it's strong sweet tea...

I don't believe that anybody alive has perfect understanding of the intricacies of the system. I think that sharing our perspective and understanding is more helpful in increasing understanding for everyone than simply dismissing others as ignorant, but that's just me.

origami_itto wrote:Well it kind of is and it isn't, right?
I mean, right off the top, we get "stand like a scale, move like a wheel" and as I previously mentioned, those are both applications of the simple machine "the lever".

I think so, since a balance scale has a pivoted horizontal lever. That makes it a little confusing to discuss. The Chinese in The Taijiquan Treatise is interesting.

立如枰凖。活似車輪。偏沈則隨。
Stand like a scale, look like a wheel, lean, sink, follow.

But scale isn't scale, it's 枰凖 - a level chessboard. Check out the character for level - 凖. That's brilliant.

origami_itto wrote:I don't believe that anybody alive has perfect understanding of the intricacies of the system.

I think that sharing our perspective and understanding is more helpful in increasing understanding for everyone than simply dismissing others as ignorant, but that's just me.

thats you,,,


really

robert wrote:

origami_itto wrote:Well it kind of is and it isn't, right?
I mean, right off the top, we get "stand like a scale, move like a wheel" and as I previously mentioned, those are both applications of the simple machine "the lever".

I think so, since a balance scale has a pivoted horizontal lever. That makes it a little confusing to discuss. The Chinese in The Taijiquan Treatise is interesting.

立如枰凖。活似車輪。偏沈則隨。
Stand like a scale, look like a wheel, lean, sink, follow.

But scale isn't scale, it's 枰凖 - a level chessboard. Check out the character for level - 凖. That's brilliant.

Quite interesting


anther translation

Do you know the experience of this image? Actually is the center, He completes a measurement value. So as when you practicing, every time in your training each of your postures, you see! Always said…Say what this sentence that is “FORCE LEVELING SYSTEM”.
What is LEVELING?

That is Scales, in each movement is the scale moving. What is shifting? Shift our body center point, look at this when I move, What is the actual? Look! Sinking shoulder and elbow.....shoulder and elbow. Balance on the center of gravity, you still flexible....still can flexible. It flow from where?

This process could be thought of like a game of "chess" ie positioning to gain the best advantage.

This shoulder flowing, to the other shoulder. After finish flowing look at this time postured, it’s ready! Now INTENTION, QI... is the key point. So now when an action is done, what’s we add in?

As everyone said we must “EXTERNAL THREE COOPERATION”. Shoulder and waist, Hand and foot, elbow and knee,

after placed, the “EXTERNAL THREE COOPERATION” Cooperated.

When you release it, it will be "INNER THREE COOPERATION”

You do every action the same, Look at it.... come back! Every action is the same, you see! Actually it is here start transform, you see coming here later. Look, his pushed over here, Up to this step, transform now. Transformed, transform to upper part, this hand (Left) is fixed.

If you reach here still keep pushing (Left) then this is “HARD HAND”. Therefore, it is "YANG" (Positive) move and "YIN" static, Remember this main point. YANG move, YIN is static. In our push hands it mean like this too. In our push hands it mean like this too YANG move, YIN is static.

Everyone watching, so when this hand is covered, it is “static”.

Don't use it to push! When I want to hit him it’s my YI, QI. YI, QI! YI, QI. Don't mind him, your finger...

When your finger touched him, you look at your own finger. You look at your fingers and like your lips self-merging, where got so many word!

Of course for those not feeling the "Qi" and "Intention" or feeling it can not be used in this way ,,,it still may not explain anything.


note: this is not quite correct

you look at your own finger. You look at your fingers and like your lips self-merging, where got so many word!

If you look at your own finger as suggested,,,the intent will stop there...if its focused on the finger...

The finger, is used as a type of method or way, that helps the mind to project the intent through the finger in the direction pointed to...
If one looks it's quite common to see this used, among those who use this method

" I think that sharing our perspective and understanding is more helpful in increasing understanding for everyone than simply dismissing others as ignorant, but that's just me. "

I agree. If I had a penny for every legend-in-his-own-lunchtime martial arts teacher who as diagnosed me as not knowing what I'm talking about by text messages over the Internet, then, well, I'd have enough to buy you a pint.

It says stand like a scale not move like one or operate like a scale
Move like a wheel
Says it all

wayne hansen wrote:those arts are about leverage
Tai chi is not

wayne hansen wrote:It says stand like a scale not move like one or operate like a scale
Move like a wheel
Says it all

Agreed.

robert wrote:Here is a fairly literal translation of the Chinese.

採勁義何解。
Cai (to pluck) jin means how to split/break.

如權之引衡。
As if extending a weight to measure.

任你力巨細。
It doesn't matter to you if the force is large or small.

權後知輕重。
Your back is aware if it is light or heavy.

轉移祗四兩。
Shift four ounces.

千斤亦可平。
Able to level (balance) a thousand pounds.

若問理何在。
Investigate the principle of where.

幹捍之作用。
The function is to ward off/defend.

Where might I be able to find the rest of the songs with this translation?

The translation is mine. The source is

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.com/2018/12/31/the-insights-of-wu-gongzao/

T T Liangs original book has a good translation of the original 8
But I like the one above

wayne hansen wrote:It says stand like a scale not move like one or operate like a scale
Move like a wheel
Says it all

I've really been investigating this, particularly in connection with the back leg.

The wheel produces translational motion and is essentially a lever. When a wheel is rolling, the part that touches the ground is completely motionless but everything else is moving. If it's powered by torque through the axle then it is functioning as a class 3 lever if I'm thinking right. It's always leverage of some sort.

But it isn't just "one thing" that's what always derails the discussion. The waist is an axletree, right? 5 directions and 8 gates = free circle.

A bit to scientific for a simple man like me
Not 5 directions but 5 gates

That's a really cool hint, thanks Wayne.

As I was taught, we train to defend and fight using 5 directions and 8 gates or 8 doors. I have been training others to do likewise since 1973. ymmv