Comparing Yang lineages beyond Chengfu

[KongFuGongFu]

Recently I made this video...

https://youtu.be/lvJclY2Auc4

I'm a Chen stylist trying to familiarize myself a bit more with these different lineages to see how they differ in appearance as well as teaching methodology. Mostly I'm curious about how different teaching methods may lead to different outward manifestations of the art. Kind of a casual nerding out thing. Superficial in a way but I find it fun :] ; I don't think I can get too deep without learning Chinese.

This video centers around Chengfu's lineage but I'm curious about the lineages which (allegedly?) come from Jianhou, Banhou, Shaohou etc. I've found that bios of purported students of these teachers seem more fantastical or strange than others. For example Wang Yanien's Michuan; Triessence released a video which explains how the story of Michuan is a bit dubious.

Any way I have found the following, correct me if I'm wrong:

- Wang Yenien learned from Zhang Qinlin, who allegedly learned from Yang Jianhou but more likely learned from Yang Chengfu.
- Tian Zhaolin learned from Jianhou and eventually Shaohou
- Wu Tunan learned from Shaohou a bit but mostly focused on Wu style. Seems like at that time Wu families had a fair bit of interaction with Yang families (e.g. Shaohou) which is cool but not sure if it makes for Yang-focused comparisons right now. Interesting character as well.
- Chi Qingsheng learned from Gu Liping who learned from Shaohou so it seems his line is fit for comparison. Liang Dehua learned from Chi
- Dong Yingjie was a student of Chengfu but also apparently learned from Shaohou

So I'm thinking of focusing on Wang Yennien, Chi Qingsheng, Tian Bingyuan (descendant of Zhaolin) and Dong Yingjie in my next video. Thoughts?

[Doc Stier]

All four of those examples, imo, reflect the style and influence of Yang Cheng-Fu's Modified Large Frame 85 Forms Set more than any influence from the earlier versions of Yang Style practiced and taught by previous Yang family masters.

[GrahamB]

GuRuZhang's style comes from Li Jin Lin/Yang Jian Hou.

Documented in 1936 https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... u-ruzhang/

[origami_itto]

- Dong Yingjie was a student of Chengfu but also apparently learned from Shaohou

He was very good at Kaihe/Wu(Hao) that he learned from Li Baoyu before he ever met Cheng Fu or Shao Hou. It's still an integral part of the family curriculum and is the first thing taught to the children.

I posted an article about this in the Wu(Hao) thread in the videos.

This is a great book about his life: https://www.amazon.com/Grand-Master-Ale ... 0998532924

[KongFuGongFu]

GuRuZhang's style comes from Li Jin Lin/Yang Jian Hou.

Documented in 1936 https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... u-ruzhang/

All four of those examples, imo, reflect the style and influence of Yang Cheng-Fu's Modified Large Frame 85 Forms Set more than any influence from the earlier versions of Yang Style practiced and taught by previous Yang family masters.

Thanks. I am looking at these names expecting to find video performances of longer routines but indeed it's challenging to find much of anything... of course it kind of makes sense, if YCF was one to pass on a standardized form while his YBH, JH, SH etc were more interested in other things? Or if these lineages are a bit more secretive or low-key in regards to their Taolu/system.

Still, even if these were influenced by YCF's form, surely their method should result in different expressions of that form, or interpretations of it.

[nicklinjm]

The problem in Shaohou's case is that there are several branches claiming to have learnt from him (Wu Tunan, Zhang Huchen, Li Shoujian, etc), but the frames / forms they practice all look different from one another, both in terms of the moves and manner of performance.

Personally one of the best performances of Yang Jianhou middle frame I have seen is from Hu Xuezhi (whose father Hu Xingzhai studied with Jianhou):

[GrahamB]

A student of Gu Ru Zhang performing his Tai Chi form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YMgQM0KUBo&t=52s

[wayne hansen]

Neither one a step up from the standard YCF form

[windwalker]

The problem in Shaohou's case is that there are several branches claiming to have learnt from him (Wu Tunan, Zhang Huchen, Li Shoujian, etc), but the frames / forms they practice all look different from one another, both in terms of the moves and manner of performance.

Personally one of the best performances of Yang Jianhou middle frame I have seen is from Hu Xuezhi (whose father Hu Xingzhai studied with Jianhou):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrXDX2acAzs

Why would this be a problem....

Could be true for all...

Each having their own personal flavor ...

Wouldn't it be more indicative to look at skill sets expressed in a unique way, according to level.
They "the masters" might be looked on as composers instead of players...

In Beijing this also used to bother me,,,attempting to see the "correct" way of my teachers practice expressed in his local students.
Many having their own distinct flavor representing different times they learned the movement according to my teachers's skill set at the time

His focus as I would image the masters of old, was not in developing "copy machines" ala JW

More like a boxing gym coach helping those with ability to develop their own unique way of expressing it...
While at the same time anyone knowing the teacher would or could clearly see the influence of the coach...

Those designated as successors, would be responsible for keeping the integrity of the original method as taught
preserving the method and skill sets for future generations.

[wayne hansen]

Comparison is not about duplication of form
Wu and yang don’t have to look the same
The Shen Fa dosent even have to be the same
However changes shouldn’t be just for the sake of change
They should always add something or what is the point
As JFK said
Don’t ask what tai chi can do for you
Rather ask what you can do for tai chi

[yeniseri]

i see very few distinctions between Yang Chengfu "lineage" and later only because Fu Zhongwen was a major 'player' who actually spread Yang style since he had somewhat of a following and they knew he was of Yang family so he stood out amongst the rest. Based on the previous responses, other Yang stylists studied Wu and Chen but prferred Yang Chengfu approach and other family member Zhao Bin/Zhao Youbin