Back Leg

[marvin8]

So you're saying you disagree with Dong? He "should train straight (release)" and "there is no release" with a bent leg? Dong "releases" with a bent rear leg:

It's distance issue....

No, you left out what I quoted, highlighted in red and your response to Bao about jin. Can you clarify your statements including, "... Agree! If there is no compress, there is no release?"

I should have been more clear. I am more interested in the straight vs bent...

You may straight your back leg (release) for 1/10 second according for your application. You should keep it bend (compress) before and after your application.

When you train solo form, you should do it as:

bend (compress) -> straight (release) -> bend (compress) -> straight (release) -> ...

If you don't sink there's no jin.

Agree! If there is no compress, there is no release.

So you're saying you disagree with Dong? He "should train straight (release)" and "there is no release" with a bent leg? Dong "releases" with a bent rear leg:

[johnwang]

So you're saying you disagree with Dong? He "should train straight (release)" and "there is no release" with a bent leg? Dong "releases" with a bent rear leg:

I didn't say there is no release with bend leg. You can release in any posture. Whether that's the maximum release or not is the concern.

The distance is one issue. The maximum release is another. You won't get the maximum release if your back leg is bending.

Try to push or pull a car with bending back leg and you should feel it yourself.

[Bob]

Yang Zhenduo went to great lengths to diferentiate between the types of movement exemplified in the Cheng Manching and his father’s style; and he made it clear that he wanted to highlight essential requirements of his father’s style.[/quote]

You jogged my old memory of experience, Windwalker.

In the late 1980s I spent a weekend with a group (personal friend) of Cheng Manching practitioners (big influence from Ben Lo) and learned some pushing hands with one of them. They were able to push effectively without straightening the back leg in sort of a way I can't explain accurately - they were soft and when they sat back on the rear leg there was ever such a slight turn as I pushed in and they were able to ever so slightly able to draw me slightly off balance and when they pushed it was also ever so slightly so as they did not have to straight the back leg but it was more or less like the compression and release of a coil spring - the push wasn't simply horizontal but spiral like of an upward/forward push - I think they referred to it as "uprooting me" and it wasn't an exertion type push seen in the car picture - kind of like an up and out - something similarly trained for in bajiquan but this is not the time nor the place.

[windwalker]

Yang Zhenduo went to great lengths to diferentiate between the types of movement exemplified in the Cheng Manching and his father’s style; and he made it clear that he wanted to highlight essential requirements of his father’s style.

You jogged my old memory of experience, Windwalker.

In the late 1980s I spent a weekend with a group (personal friend) of Cheng Manching practitioners (big influence from Ben Lo) and learned some pushing hands with one of them. They were able to push effectively without straightening the back leg in sort of a way I can't explain accurately - they were soft and when they sat back on the rear leg there was ever such a slight turn as I pushed in and they were able to ever so slightly able to draw me slightly off balance and when they pushed it was also ever so slightly so as they did not have to straight the back leg but it was more or less like the compression and release of a coil spring - the push wasn't simply horizontal but spiral like of an upward/forward push - I think they referred to it as "uprooting me" and it wasn't an exertion type push seen in the car picture - kind of like an up and out - something similarly trained for in bajiquan but this is not the time nor the place.[/quote]


With some of Ben's more noted students kind of hit or miss regarding skill level...

Quite correct the "theory" used is different ...


Some of have called what you outlined as ti fang


there are other ways of looking at whats going on....as you noted..not really the time or place

happy holidays

[marvin8]

So you're saying you disagree with Dong? He "should train straight (release)" and "there is no release" with a bent leg? Dong "releases" with a bent rear leg:

I didn't say there is no release with bend leg. You can release in any posture. Whether that's the maximum release or not is the concern.

The distance is one issue. The maximum release is another. You won't get the maximum release if your back leg is bending.

Try to push or pull a car with bending back leg and you should feel it yourself.

https://i.postimg.cc/vHyT8fYq/push-car.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/vZNYM1HD/pull-car.jpg

Ok. People and styles (e.g., internal/external) may have differences in opinion on power generation.

Striking with the rear hand and a bent back leg can generate more power by allowing more body rotation, torque, horizontal force and transfer of weight. Also, hop stepping rather than straightening the rear leg is a major factor. Here Lopez throws a KO right hand without ever straightening his back leg:

Biomechanically, the better frame may depend on the context (e.g., push, punch, lure, etc.) and distance from opponent. Also, there are advantages to bending the rear leg (e.g., rotation, head movement), while having the weight and head on the front foot.

In the tai chi form, one down parries, then pushes (not simultaneously). A concept in boxing and MMA is simultaneous attack and defend (getting one's head off line). If one never gets their head off line while issuing (like in the CMC frame), they may be KOd.

Lopez starts with weight loaded on the back foot. Commey tries to punch Lopez's head located on the back foot. However, Lopez moves his head to over the front foot—simultaneously slipping Commey's punch and knocking down Commey:

[Bob]

Windwalker, you got me thinking even more - direct line of Yang Chengfu lineage - showed me that when you begin the push from the rear leg you actually drive the force into the heel of the front foot so you are actually pushing off from the front leg and driving the force to the front heel stops you from extending knee over the toe - not sure if this is clear but nonetheless you also enjoy the holidays.

[origami_itto]

They were able to push effectively without straightening the back leg in sort of a way I can't explain accurately - they were soft and when they sat back on the rear leg there was ever such a slight turn as I pushed in and they were able to ever so slightly able to draw me slightly off balance and when they pushed it was also ever so slightly so as they did not have to straight the back leg but it was more or less like the compression and release of a coil spring - the push wasn't simply horizontal but spiral like of an upward/forward push - I think they referred to it as "uprooting me" and it wasn't an exertion type push seen in the car picture - kind of like an up and out - something similarly trained for in bajiquan but this is not the time nor the place.

The mechanics of power generation in taijiquan are not based on extension of the limbs, but on rotating the waist like a wheel. When you're pushing on them and they withdraw and turn slightly their structure is functioning like a wheel. What happens when you push on one side of a horizontal wheel? This is lu/"roll back"

Similarly, an/"push" can be thought of like a wheel standing vertically, the top moving down towards you and the bottom moving up towards the opponent... as it moves forward. Think kind of like a billiard or tennis ball with backspin. If you can get purchase then at some point in the rotation it will hit a gap in the opponent's power/structure and uproot.

The opponent's tension that they're trying to apply to our frame serves as the bridge to connect both bodies as a single mass so we can affect them as one, but they are not tightly coupled. What happens to something loosely attached to a ball or wheel when it starts to spin or bounce?

Others might do it differently.

[robert]

Similarly, an/"push" can be thought of like a wheel standing vertically, the top moving down towards you and the bottom moving up towards the opponent... as it moves forward. Think kind of like a billiard or tennis ball with backspin. If you can get purchase then at some point in the rotation it will hit a gap in the opponent's power/structure and uproot.

In push in Yang style, you bend forward slightly so the circular motion is up the back and down the front. Right?

The mechanics of power generation in taijiquan are not based on extension of the limbs, but on rotating the waist like a wheel.
Others might do it differently.

FZW for one. In Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan he writes.

The source of jin is: "It is rooted in the feet, issues through the legs, is governed by the waist, and is expressed through the fingers." (See 'Taijiquan Treatise.") For example, in the transition from Figure 16 to 17 (in Push), the weight-bearing surface area of the two feet constitutes their root. For instance, if one is going to push a shopping cart certainly one depends on the weight-bearing surfaces. If the two feet are floating in the air and have no weight-bearing contact, pushing the hand cart would be unthinkable. Hence the saying "it is rooted in the feet.'' (Practice includes weight-bearing surfaces in advancing steps, retreating steps, or yuandi standing postures.) With the right leg in a forward bow stance, the left leg treading to the rear, this is "issues through the legs." So if one pushes the hand cart forward, although both feet have weight-bearing surface area, certainly one must draw support from the front leg being bowed and the back leg treading to the rear.

Back leg treading (pushing) to the rear is an extension of the leg. I think this description is interesting. Training with people from China, when they talk about lifting something, they describe it as pushing into the ground. FWIW.

[Quigga]

I'm just happy I still got two functioning legs

[Doc Stier]

In the older Yang Style I was taught, the rear leg is straightened as the body weight is shifted forward, but the hip and knee joints remain relaxed and slightly bent, with the upper body slightly inclined forward. These joints are not locked completely straight as seen in many martial art styles.

The Cheng Man-Ching style appears to issue power primarily from the front leg, thus allowing greater bend in the rear leg and a more vertically upright upper body posture.

[wayne hansen]

Beware when practicing CMC of getting caught up in the C back and the much misunderstood 70/30 theory

[origami_itto]

Similarly, an/"push" can be thought of like a wheel standing vertically, the top moving down towards you and the bottom moving up towards the opponent... as it moves forward. Think kind of like a billiard or tennis ball with backspin. If you can get purchase then at some point in the rotation it will hit a gap in the opponent's power/structure and uproot.

In push in Yang style, you bend forward slightly so the circular motion is up the back and down the front. Right?

The mechanics of power generation in taijiquan are not based on extension of the limbs, but on rotating the waist like a wheel.
Others might do it differently.

FZW for one. In Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan he writes.

The source of jin is: "It is rooted in the feet, issues through the legs, is governed by the waist, and is expressed through the fingers." (See 'Taijiquan Treatise.") For example, in the transition from Figure 16 to 17 (in Push), the weight-bearing surface area of the two feet constitutes their root. For instance, if one is going to push a shopping cart certainly one depends on the weight-bearing surfaces. If the two feet are floating in the air and have no weight-bearing contact, pushing the hand cart would be unthinkable. Hence the saying "it is rooted in the feet.'' (Practice includes weight-bearing surfaces in advancing steps, retreating steps, or yuandi standing postures.) With the right leg in a forward bow stance, the left leg treading to the rear, this is "issues through the legs." So if one pushes the hand cart forward, although both feet have weight-bearing surface area, certainly one must draw support from the front leg being bowed and the back leg treading to the rear.

Back leg treading (pushing) to the rear is an extension of the leg. I think this description is interesting. Training with people from China, when they talk about lifting something, they describe it as pushing into the ground. FWIW.

This has me looking and thinking and reading. There's definitely a horizontal/down component to the movement. From press there is a lu and lieh, then the down of an, then the forward and up. Maybe it's more accurately two arcs, one up and back and down, then down, then up and forward, not forward and up? Like the second arc is not completing a circle, but reversing the arc from a lower point, if that makes any sense.

The pushing into the ground is just newton's 3rd law, right? In order to exert force against something we have to have something keeping us from flying backwards with equal and opposite force.

I think it's easiest to see in ward off right (using the movement name to be clear about the form vs the energy), the first part of grasp sparrow's tail.

So from the back we shift (pour?) the weight to the front, as we turn the waist. The waist is the axle. The back/left calf stays stationary in space, the back/left knee straightens slightly. The front/right hip stays stationary, the back/left hip moves forward. The shoulders track the hips and the arm sweeps to the right. The arc of the arm, projecting linearly, functions like the arch of a stone doorway or eggshell, but sweeping across a confusing vector, even moving backwards in some parts. The front leg holds the weight but the back leg spins the wheel by providing the anchor that the waist pushes against THROUGH the leg. It's the action of the qua that straightens the leg, not the quadraceps.

Mechanically, the right hip is where the wheel touches the ground and is completely stationary (stillness in motion, perhaps). The rotation of the axle drives the rest of the wheel forward, known as translational motion (one part moves, all parts move).

So I guess what I mean is that it's not a linear extension, its... well... spiral. A straight leg breaks all of that and the coiling/absorbing retreat.

I mean, I'm probably wrong but all of this makes perfect sense to me.

Also, not the biggest fan of FZW. but this is interesting, his first movement after beginning appears to be the same as the lift hands to white crane transition that a lot of Yang stylists count as shoulder stroke.

[johnwang]

Do you make your:

- back leg,
- body,
- head,

into a perfect straight line?

[robert]

I think it's easiest to see in ward off right (using the movement name to be clear about the form vs the energy), the first part of grasp sparrow's tail.

That seems overly complex if we're discussing the back leg. Push seems simpler. Am I wrong? I suspect there's a reason FZW chose push to discuss the basic idea of jin. If we discuss push.

So from the back we shift (pour?) the weight to the front, ...

Talking about weight shifts there are a couple ways to look at it. One is to sink into the leg we're moving too, and another is to push off the leg were moving from. In reality we want to do both. Sinking into the leg we're moving too is yin and is closing (he), while pushing off the leg we're moving from is yang and is opening (kai). You can emphasize either. To relax and flow I often think of sinking, sinking, sinking. Even though I'm sinking there is still some yang in the yin, I'm aware the other leg is opening.

Also, not the biggest fan of FZW.

I like his description of jin in his book, I like the interviews I've read with him, and his family seems pretty good.

Here's a video of Yang Jun teaching GST, push is 11:30 to 12:08. The body closes (he) as the weight shifts back and opens (kai) as the weight shifts forward.

[johnwang]

Try not to use old people's Taiji video as guideline. Old people can't

- drop low,
- keep body straight.

Old CMA saying said, "You are unlucky if when you were a student, your teacher was already an old man. You would learn a lot of "老人架 (Lao Ren Jia) - old man's frame" from your teacher.