Back Leg

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Back Leg

Postby origami_itto on Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:18 am

I've noticed there is some difference among folks in how the back leg ends up when in a forward weighted bow stance.

Straight or bent? What weighting?

How do you do it in your style?

Image
Last edited by origami_itto on Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5033
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Back Leg

Postby Bao on Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:39 am

"How do you do it in your style?"

How I do something depends. However, I do not recognise "style" in Tai Chi, so what I do, or how I do it, does not depend on "style".
Last edited by Bao on Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Back Leg

Postby origami_itto on Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:28 am

Bao wrote:"How do you do it in your style?"

How I do something depends. However, I do not recognise "style" in Tai Chi, so what I do, or how I do it, does not depend on "style".


The way you do it is your style, right? No need to be pedantic. :D

What do you do with your leg, usually?
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5033
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Back Leg

Postby Bao on Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:13 am

In a broader forward posture as above, I should have my front foot forward, slightly turned inwards, and the back foot at a 45° angle.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Back Leg

Postby windwalker on Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:27 am

edited:


rear knee "bent" :)
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:29 am, edited 6 times in total.
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10545
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Back Leg

Postby origami_itto on Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:52 am

I should have been more clear. I am more interested in the straight vs bent...
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5033
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Back Leg

Postby johnwang on Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:59 am

origami_itto wrote:I should have been more clear. I am more interested in the straight vs bent...

You may straight your back leg (release) for 1/10 second according for your application. You should keep it bend (compress) before and after your application.

When you train solo form, you should do it as:

bend (compress) -> straight (release) -> bend (compress) -> straight (release) -> ...
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Dec 20, 2022 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Back Leg

Postby Bao on Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:51 pm

"I am more interested in the straight vs bent..."

If you don't sink there's no jin.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Back Leg

Postby johnwang on Tue Dec 20, 2022 6:46 pm

Bao wrote:If you don't sink there's no jin.

Agree! If there is no compress, there is no release.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Back Leg

Postby marvin8 on Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:45 pm

johnwang wrote:
origami_itto wrote:I should have been more clear. I am more interested in the straight vs bent...

You may straight your back leg (release) for 1/10 second according for your application. You should keep it bend (compress) before and after your application.

When you train solo form, you should do it as:

bend (compress) -> straight (release) -> bend (compress) -> straight (release) -> ...
Bao wrote:If you don't sink there's no jin.

Agree! If there is no compress, there is no release.

In the OP I believe Dong "releases" with a bent rear leg, without "straight (release):"

Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4WwTVNqXAk&t=43s

origami_itto wrote:I should have been more clear. I am more interested in the straight vs bent...

Interesting to add, "... If so, why do you straighten your leg? Do you ever align your head over the front knee?

marvin8 wrote:Biomechanically, ... Also, there are advantages to bending the rear leg (e.g., rotation, head movement), while having the weight and head on the front foot.

An important concept in some MAs, head movement (or get your head off the centerline).

MMA Time
Jan 3, 2017


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o5iI_8MU1U
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Back Leg

Postby johnwang on Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:33 pm

marvin8 wrote:In the OP I believe Dong "releases" with a bent rear leg, without "straight (release)."

It depends on your application. The bow-arrow stance can be the end of many different leg skills (such as "spring").

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Back Leg

Postby origami_itto on Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:05 am

johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:In the OP I believe Dong "releases" with a bent rear leg, without "straight (release)."

It depends on your application. The bow-arrow stance can be the end of many different leg skills (such as "spring").

Image


I think that's a perfectly valid technique and example of leg skill.

I don't know that the particular application is a part of the regular taijiquan curriculum/form. Similar sort of throws, sure, but I'd think we'd use bump/kao a little differently. You can even see in the example that he's actually making contact using his hip.

Although. maybe I'm not considering things like "turn and kick with heel" that some do starting with throwing the free leg back and then turning into it.

Still though, seems a little different. I think I'd see this sort of throw more as an expression of something like "needle at sea bottom", which still has a bent leg.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5033
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Back Leg

Postby marvin8 on Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:05 am

johnwang wrote:
origami_itto wrote:I should have been more clear. I am more interested in the straight vs bent...

You may straight your back leg (release) for 1/10 second according for your application. You should keep it bend (compress) before and after your application.

When you train solo form, you should do it as:

bend (compress) -> straight (release) -> bend (compress) -> straight (release) -> ...
Bao wrote:If you don't sink there's no jin.

Agree! If there is no compress, there is no release.

So you're saying you disagree with Dong? He "should train straight (release)" and "there is no release" with a bent leg? Dong "releases" with a bent rear leg:

Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4WwTVNqXAk&t=43s

origami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:
marvin8 wrote:In the OP I believe Dong "releases" with a bent rear leg, without "straight (release)."

It depends on your application. The bow-arrow stance can be the end of many different leg skills (such as "spring").

Image

... Although, maybe I'm not considering things like "turn and kick with heel" that some do starting with throwing the free leg back and then turning into it.

Still though, seems a little different. I think I'd see this sort of throw more as an expression of something like "needle at sea bottom", which still has a bent leg.

I don't believe that throw requires 2 steps (1 stealing step) -> 2 leg springs (from bow & arrow) -> throw.

Split Hip Ogoshi — shuffle step (bow & arrow from front) -> hip throw:

Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbVYDA2rB3o&t=3m12s
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Back Leg

Postby johnwang on Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:07 am

marvin8 wrote:I don't believe that throw requires 2 steps (1 stealing step) -> 2 leg springs (from bow & arrow) -> throw.

That clip is for a teacher who teaches a throw to his students in slow motion.

In the following clip, you can see there is no stealing step but a "hop".

Image

In high level, there exist no stealing step but a "hop".

Image
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Back Leg

Postby johnwang on Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:16 am

marvin8 wrote:So you're saying you disagree with Dong? He "should train straight (release)" and "there is no release" with a bent leg? Dong "releases" with a bent rear leg:

Image

It's distance issue. The one on the right has more reach than the one on the left.

3-7 stance -> 4-6 stance -> horse stance - bow-arrow stance with bend back leg -> bow-arrow stance with straight back leg -> monkey stance -> golden rooster stance.

When you throw a punch at your opponent with bow-arrow stance, if you straight your back leg, you will get that exter 1-3 inches reach than if you keep your back leg bend. Sometime you do need that extra 1-3 inches to be able to land your punch on your opponent's body.

If you can make your back arm, chest, fore arm into a straight line with bow-arrow stance with straight back leg, you can have the maximum body stretching and maximum reach. That's the long fist principle. Since Taiji came from long fist, this principle also apply on Taiji too

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10240
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests