3rd generation

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: 3rd generation

Postby Trip on Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:15 am

In regards to what Chengfu allegedly said about his Grandfather
I think the Translator's introduction [Louis Swaim] should also be taken into account.

More problematic with regard to authorship are the “Preface” and “Introduction” presented under Yang Chengfu's name. The “Preface” has Yang Chengfu recounting first-hand conversations with his grandfather, Yang Luchan. This is an impossibility, given the fact that Yang Chengfu was born in 1883, eleven years after the date recorded as the year Yang Luchan died: 1872.6 One could speculate that Zheng wrote the “Preface” and “Introduction” based upon second-hand accounts of Yang family anecdotes. The anecdotes may have been true, save for the awkward anachronism of Yang being in his grandfather’s presence. But even apart from this sticky situation, a good deal of the discourse in the alleged conversation seems a better fit with the social and political background of Zheng Manqing than that of Yang Luchan’s generation.


If the form narratives in fact represent the direct teachings of Yang Chengfu, one might ask how it is they came to be recorded in book form. It has long been speculated that the book was actually ghostwritten by Zheng Manqing (Cheng Man-ch’ing). Yang Chengfu’s second son, Yang Zhenji, made it quite clear when he stated, “Taijiquan Tiyongquanshu was written by my father’s disciple, Zheng Manqing, according to my father’s performance narratives and requirements. This is factual.”3 Yang Zhenji thus makes it clear that the basis of the book was his fathers “performance narratives” (yanshu 演述). However, one must dig a little deeper to clarify Zheng’s role in writing the book. To this end, I have compared the form section texts of Taijiquan Tiyong Quanshu with an earlier book published in 1931 under Yang Chengfu's name, Taijiquan Shiyongfa (Application Methods of Taijiquan). That book is known to have been compiled and edited by another of Yang’s students, Dong Yingjie (Tung Ying-chieh).4 The earlier version was likely an assemblage of observations and notes collected over time from Yang Chengfu’s teaching sessions. These “class notes” were then distilled into Dong’s terse, semi-classical style of writing.


One immediate difference between the texts is that the earlier Shiyongfa sections are unpunctuated, while the form sections for Taijiquan Tiyong Quanshu have punctuation. Traditional Chinese books were not punctuated, and it was the reader’s job to parse the sentences, determine which clauses were subordinate, and to match up subjects and predicates. Dong Yingjie was a classically trained scholar and evidently did not feel compelled to use punctuation in his writing. However, among the many changes in society and education during China’s encounter with modernity, there came the introduction in the early twentieth century of Western-style punctuation (biaodian 標點). Increasingly, modern readers who were not trained in reading classical Chinese writings relied upon punctuation for their comprehension, 'The addition of punctuation in Yang’s later book was evidently an editorial decision on Zheng Manqing’s part. Zheng was classically trained, but he must have felt the need to make the book more accessible to modern readers.


In many cases, the added punctuation is the only difference between the earlier and later form section texts. In other cases, some rough or ambiguous wording has been smoothed or reworked. Finally, in a number of cases, there are identifiable qualitative changes and additions. These include cases where there are added allusions to literary’ or philosophical texts that we know Zheng was versed in.
Last edited by Trip on Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby Quigga on Tue Dec 27, 2022 2:52 am

Even if the text's origins are dubious, I like it.


Wayne, did those tough men cry bc CMC stopped terrorizing them or did they lose a good friend?
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:08 am

There was no terrorising
They lost a teacher who they really respected and loved
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby Quigga on Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:10 am

Ah ok.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby origami_itto on Tue Dec 27, 2022 5:20 am

Quigga wrote:Even if the text's origins are dubious, I like it.


Wayne, did those tough men cry bc CMC stopped terrorizing them or did they lose a good friend?

The origins are known, CMC and YCF.

It's nothing new, masters have been making shit up forever to bolster their status and keep the rice bowl full. Hence we can't trust any of these stories implicitly. They may be wholesale lies, may be inspired by the truth... hard to tell. Can only really trust (or take credit for) the results of your own effort.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby Quigga on Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:02 am

True that. But imagine you could pay other people to train for you, and then they'd transmit their effort to you. That would lead to many troubles lol.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Dec 27, 2022 12:56 pm

I wonder how correct the translation is
I imagine it would be easy to mix up
I heard and I saw over the bridge from Chinese to English
I had teachers who trained with both men
They were honourable intelligent and respected their teachers
Good enough for me
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby origami_itto on Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:15 pm

The translation is "my grandfather, Yang Lu Chan" so while I don't read it myself, imagine that's a pretty easy one to get right.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby origami_itto on Tue Jan 10, 2023 12:07 pm

Here's another account that says Banhou was not the best.
http://shaolintemplemi.org/yang-banhou-best-of-the-yang-family-second-generation.html
Though Banhou was the best of the second generation of the Yang family, he did not stand out among his contemporaries the way his father did with his peers. In the Yang T'ai Chi Chuan community, several of Luchan's students were the equal of Banhou if not superior. Banhou was known for being mean, arrogant, and jealous of other people with a similar level of skill to his.

Banhou was also incautious at times. An account of his first meeting with a young Ma Gui (马贵( 1847/1851–1941), future master of the internal style of Baguazhang, illustrates this. Gui was then 19 years old and working as a carpenter. One day Gui delivered some wood to the palace of Prince Duan of the Second Rank (端郡王, 1856–1923). Duan was a Manchu prince who patronized Luchan and other famous martial arts masters of the time. The prince would also become known as a leader of the Boxer Rebellion of 1899–1901 against encroaching Western foreigners. Banhou was practicing pushing hands with the prince. Being young and immature, Gui laughed impolitely.

The prince asked Gui, "Do you understand this? Do you practice?"

Gui said, "No, I practice something else…"

The prince said, "Do you want to try with my teacher then?"

Gui answered that he was afraid to damage any part of the prince's palace or cause injury to Banhou. The prince then pardoned him for any possible damage.

Banhou held the small, thin Gui to be of little account, so he was a little careless. From their first touch, Gui charged with a burst of blinding speed and got inside of Banhou's guard, and struck Banhou with what would become his famous wrist strike. The impact knocked Banhou back several steps to the ground, destroying a man-sized garden vase in the process. The vase was a gift from Emperor Tongzi (同治皇帝, r. 1861–1875), so its breaking was a grave offense that could call for Gui's death.

The prince yelled at Gui, remonstrating him.

Gui replied with a childlike manner, "But you promised there'd be no trouble and you'd forgive me no matter what…"

Hearing this, the prince laughed and let the matter drop. Additionally, he made Gui teacher to his son Puzhuan (溥儁; 1875–1920).
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jan 10, 2023 7:03 pm

Hit him with a wrist strike
Sent him back several steps
Knocked over a man sized vase

Sounds reasonable
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby origami_itto on Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:35 am

wayne hansen wrote:Hit him with a wrist strike
Sent him back several steps
Knocked over a man sized vase

Sounds reasonable


Are you saying that you couldn't knock a man back into a vase with the back of your wrist? Or that such a vase would be difficult to knock over?
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:31 am

I’m saying if it sounds like BS it most likely is
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby Quigga on Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:21 am

I don't know, maybe since it says "wrist strike" and not "flick of the wrist" maybe it's possible the story is true. If I catch someone going backwards either straight or diagonally or w/e, unbalance/trip/shin bite/knee lock them, then add a wrist strike at the same time, the person could tumble in a direction for quite a distance.

But since I'm not in the "upholding or restoring reputation of individual or collective instances", I don't really care whether it's true or not. Maybe I would if I was a descendant or practitioner of associated styles. Or If I had to sell something.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby origami_itto on Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:32 am

wayne hansen wrote:I’m saying if it sounds like BS it most likely is


I guess I'm saying it doesn't seem that far-fetched that you could hit someone with their wrist, send them stumbling backwards, and that they might knock over a vase.

Not saying it's absolutely a 100% guaranteed true story, just saying that on the face of it I don't see anything too unbelievable. Nobody is invincible.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:37 pm

Most wrist strikes I can think of are a bit like ward off or the hook hand in single whip
Wild horse flings it’s mane can be delivered as a wrist strike
They are usually short shock blows like a boxing jab
Not designed to propel a body backwards
A man sized would be at least 5 ft tall
I imagine it with a stable base and walls thick enough to hold its structure
Most likely pot bellied
To get it to a point of tipping the apex would need to get beyond the centre of balance
This was after he had been thrown several steps where I would imagine the propelling force would be diminishing
This taking into account that yang ha no real balance
Anyone with any understanding of tai chi would find the mechanics here a little hard to believe
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