3rd generation

[windwalker]

Recently some have speculated as to the history of "lin kong jin"
Whether it was taught as part of the yang family tradition

As for "God Fight", that is, volley force.

There are many sayings about Lingkong Jin, and some people learn to do it, saying that it is a play that uses their own mind to control the opponent's mind.

I also watched many people's drills, and I felt that it was completely different from what the master demonstrated and explained.

Nearly a hundred years ago, the master wrote a poem when he learned Lingkong Jin from Mr. Shaohou, which talked in detail about the cultivation process and its usage. The poem says: "Mengxiang, the marquis of Luchan class, passed the volley in the heart of the third generation.

It's a shame that my teacher is very serious and taught me all the steps..." It can be seen that the volley is not only a problem of mind, as some people say, but also a problem.

A product of hard training.

Mr Shaohou

Yang Shaohou (Chinese: 楊少侯, Pinyin: Yáng Shàohóu; 1862-1930) was a Chinese martial arts master who, along with Yang Chengfu (楊澄甫; 1883-1936), represents the third generation of Yang-style t'ai chi ch'uan. Grandmaster of his generation and known for his compact "small frame" techniques, he was a ferocious fighter and a demanding teacher.

"Lingkong Jin" is also called "losing hands". It is a combination of energy and energy in an instant between the two sides. The application must be conditional. Seize the opportunity and hit the opponent with the divine weapon in an instant, and it will work.

It is useless for you to give the blind man volley force. The master once told such a story, when Mr. Luchan taught Yibeile (later Duan Wang Zaiyi),
one day they went out to the city to go hunting, and Yibeile was riding in front of him.

He was young and eager to try Mr. Luchan.

Unexpectedly, Mr. Luchan's eyes were swollen, and he raised his hand forward, causing Yibeile to turn over and fall from the horse in fright.

Through this story, we can also learn more about Lingkong Jin.

Quite interesting reading...

[windwalker]

a local Taiwan teacher....

To sum up, Mr. Lin and Li Lian

described Wu Tunan's expression when he released it in the air: "Master stared at me and pointed forward with ten fingers", and Wu Tunan's recounting that Yang Luchan frightened Duan Wang Zaiyi to turn over and fall off the horse.


The situation, how similar! Does the Yang family have the volley energy that Wu Tunan mentioned? Wu Tunan said that he got the lingkong energy from the Yang family, is it nonsense, or is it true? I don't understand, and I don't need to go into details, but I can feel it in Teacher Lin's demeanor.

Posting some things found in answers to my own questions,
posited by some of the posting here

Across the spectrum of teachers I've either met or researched ,
the methods used / practices are all quite similar if not the same...

[Appledog]

Posting some things found in answers to my own questions,
posited by some of the posting here

Across the spectrum of teachers I've either met or researched ,
the methods used / practices are all quite similar if not the same...

I would feel better if these stories didn't come from Wu Tunan.

That being said the problem with 'volley force' is that it is real... "but".

Tai Chi Ch'uan is a wonderful collection of moves and applications, upon which we find the method of push hands, and volley force is either built upon this foundation or it is not. Overall it appears as if it's built on the foundations. As an aside tho I would point out that volley force also exists in other styles.

Therefore as advice to myself, I would say volley force is real, "but". You don't need to worry about it. If you focus on your tai chi kungfu and can get deep enough, it will not be an issue for you. And even if you are not taught it, it is possible to be a kungfu genius and either figure it out on your own or by feeling it once or twice. More than 10 or 20 times or on a regular basis, one should even be able to get a taste for it. Therefore when training, be open and honest with yourself and others, follow the principle of mercy, and seek out those who are better than you. Force your opponent to pass through the gate of traditional kungfu training and then, should he succeed, and attempt to use volley force on you in order to win, you will capture the secret like catching cicadas.

[windwalker]

I would feel better if these stories didn't come from Wu Tunan.

That being said the problem with 'volley force' is that it is real... "but".

Tai Chi Ch'uan is a wonderful collection of moves and applications, upon which we find the method of push hands, and volley force is either built upon this foundation or it is not. Overall it appears as if it's built on the foundations. As an aside tho I would point out that volley force also exists in other styles.

Quite true...

Only mentioned as part of my own inquiry to historical accounts....
sharing a bit of it here,,,,

Ao asked M Yao about the‘fa gong’ [external release of qi], and asked whether Yiquan could produce this kind of ability too.

At first, M Yao was reluctant to talk about this kind of thing, but eventually, seeing that Ao wasn’t going to drop it, sighed and raised his hand.

Bear in mind that Ao and M Yao were separated by a dining table at this point. M Yao lifted his hand and made a very small fa li motion towards Ao’s face. Ao felt as if a large mass of paper had hit his forehead, it scared him witlesss. Have you ever come across this ability?

The point,

historical accounts of the Yang family having this skill set.
Other teachers masters developed it under different names,.
Some teachers choosing not to mention it...to outsiders or as part of their formal curriculum
feeling that for some they would come to develop it on their own...

Most of the things mentioned regarding it,,those that practice it or have felt it...
Do go though an in depth self investigation...IME

As to Wu Tunan,,,have worked with someone who's teacher in Beijing was a direct student.
He confirmed a couple of points, quite similar in outlook and usage....as to the practice there.

as mentioned whether touched or not, the "process" by which it's said to work by is the same...
Seems to be very consistent among those working with it, based on the same concepts / theories

happy holidays

[origami_itto]

Recently some have speculated as to the history of "lin kong jin"
Whether it was taught as part of the yang family tradition

As for "God Fight", that is, volley force.

There are many sayings about Lingkong Jin, and some people learn to do it, saying that it is a play that uses their own mind to control the opponent's mind.

I also watched many people's drills, and I felt that it was completely different from what the master demonstrated and explained.

Nearly a hundred years ago, the master wrote a poem when he learned Lingkong Jin from Mr. Shaohou, which talked in detail about the cultivation process and its usage. The poem says: "Mengxiang, the marquis of Luchan class, passed the volley in the heart of the third generation.

It's a shame that my teacher is very serious and taught me all the steps..." It can be seen that the volley is not only a problem of mind, as some people say, but also a problem.

A product of hard training.

Mr Shaohou

Yang Shaohou (Chinese: 楊少侯, Pinyin: Yáng Shàohóu; 1862-1930) was a Chinese martial arts master who, along with Yang Chengfu (楊澄甫; 1883-1936), represents the third generation of Yang-style t'ai chi ch'uan. Grandmaster of his generation and known for his compact "small frame" techniques, he was a ferocious fighter and a demanding teacher.

"Lingkong Jin" is also called "losing hands". It is a combination of energy and energy in an instant between the two sides. The application must be conditional. Seize the opportunity and hit the opponent with the divine weapon in an instant, and it will work.

It is useless for you to give the blind man volley force. The master once told such a story, when Mr. Luchan taught Yibeile (later Duan Wang Zaiyi),
one day they went out to the city to go hunting, and Yibeile was riding in front of him.

He was young and eager to try Mr. Luchan.

Unexpectedly, Mr. Luchan's eyes were swollen, and he raised his hand forward, causing Yibeile to turn over and fall from the horse in fright.

Through this story, we can also learn more about Lingkong Jin.

Quite interesting reading...

I thought I'd already posted this, but by several accounts, the Yang's were not the best of the 3rd, or even 2nd, generation.

[Doc Stier]

"...by several accounts, the Yang's were not the best of the 3rd, or even 2nd, generation." Origami Ito

And whose accounts might those be? Yang Pan-Hou and Yang Chien-Hou (2nd generation), along with Yang Shao-Hou (3rd generation), were among the most famous and respected masters of any CMA style during their respective lifetimes for a reason, namely due to their frequent personal demonstrations of very effective fighting skills versus a wide variety of opponents from many different styles.

Please list your sources claiming that they were considered otherwise by comparison to anyone of their era.

[Bhassler]

"...by several accounts, the Yang's were not the best of the 3rd, or even 2nd, generation." Origami Ito

And whose accounts might those be? Yang Pan-Hou and Yang Chien-Hou (2nd generation), along with Yang Shao-Hou (3rd generation), were among the most famous and respected masters of any CMA style during their respective lifetimes for a reason, namely due to their frequent personal demonstrations of very effective fighting skills versus a wide variety of opponents from many different styles.

Please list your sources claiming that they were considered otherwise by comparison to anyone of their era.

Are there credible sources detailing who they defeated, when and where, etc., or is it all just legend repeated ad infinitum until it's considered truth?

[origami_itto]

"...by several accounts, the Yang's were not the best of the 3rd, or even 2nd, generation." Origami Ito

And whose accounts might those be? Yang Pan-Hou and Yang Chien-Hou (2nd generation), along with Yang Shao-Hou (3rd generation), were among the most famous and respected masters of any CMA style during their respective lifetimes for a reason, namely due to their frequent personal demonstrations of very effective fighting skills versus a wide variety of opponents from many different styles.

Please list your sources claiming that they were considered otherwise by comparison to anyone of their era.

So the first is T. T. Liang, in his book he translates someone else's account of "The Secret Bitterness of yang Family T'ai Chi" (T'ai Chi Ch'uan for Health and Self Defense p124, Vintage Books, 1977)

It's a bit fantastical, with Chen Hsui Feng claiming the title of Head Disciple at Yang Luchan's grave and lifting a heavy chair with the flat of his palm with sticking energy, but it is known that they were not Yang Lu Chan's first or most senior students and they only studied because they were compelled and driven to. It is entirely possible that he held so much back from non family members that even with a couple decade's head start they couldn't compete with a couple of reluctant students just because they were family, but realistically I doubt it. There are lots of reasons why they'd be lauded above their ability.

He also recounts a first hand experience on the mainland where Cheng Man Ching was patted on the back by an unnamed taijiquan master and was sick for three days until the master came and cured him. (T'ai-Chi Ch'uan Lessons with Master T. T. Liang p92, Ray Hayward, Shu -kuang press, 2000) that seemed to me to speak about a non-Yang lineage.

I'll have to look back through my recently read pile for other references, but I believe it was in relation to Wu of some sort. I read a lot and don't take many notes.

[Doc Stier]

Jasoni-san: With all due respect for the late Master Liang, whom I knew from the late 1970's until his death, he was a rogue lone ranger of sorts. He rarely spoke a positive word about any of his teachers or predecessors. Thus, I would advise you to take anything he wrote or said about other practitioners with a healthy dose of skepticism.

[origami_itto]

Jasoni-san: With all due respect for the late Master Liang, whom I knew from the late 1970's until his death, he was a rogue lone ranger of sorts. He rarely spoke a positive word about any of his teachers or predecessors. Thus, I would advise you to take anything he wrote or said about other practitioners with a healthy dose of skepticism.

I mean, I DO, lol, positive or negative, hence "by some accounts" I'm still looking for the other references. I think it's actually in Douglas Wile's work.

[wayne hansen]

Who was there
Who took the photos
Who filmed

[Doc Stier]

Who was there
Who took the photos
Who filmed

Exactly. Good questions. Regardless of individual opinions regarding the skills of second and third generation masters in the Yang family, if either photos or film documentation existed to validate same, we probably would have seen it by now.

[Bhassler]

Who was there
Who took the photos
Who filmed

Exactly. Good questions. Regardless of individual opinions regarding the skills of second and third generation masters in the Yang family, if either photos or film documentation existed to validate same, we probably would have seen it by now. -shrug-

Or first generation. Martial artists tend to run in relatively small circles, and the big fish in one bucket are likely unheard of in another.

[Doc Stier]

As with other historical figures, some stories related to the martial artists of earlier generations, like the early Yang family masters, are undoubtedly either exaggerated or even totally fictional, but most likely based upon some degree of actual truth.

Accounts of other events, however, are described in the testimonials of multiple, independent eye witnesses who had nothing to gain in recording what they saw. Additionally, dishonesty would have been outed by other individuals who were also present, thereby refuting any overt exaggerations or inaccuracies.

Nonetheless, people will either believe or disbelieve such accounts according to their own personal biases and agenda priorities. At this point in time, it doesn't really matter to me, since historical events don't influence or impact my personal training regimen in any way. Only my own efforts can do that.

How many of today's top fighters, either Western boxers or MMA fighters, will be remembered by name for their respective skills 90-100+ years past their death? I'm guessing probably very few, if any, so you do the math. Is it really rational and logical to think that the enduring reputations of various Old Masters are totally unmerited unless validated with photos and film footage? I don't think so, but whatever.

[johnwang]

Why are people so interested in the past history? I'm only interested in the current. I can't careless about what ancient people could do. I only care about what I can do.

Yesterday has passed. Tomorrow hasn't come yet. Today is the only real thing that we have.