3rd generation

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: 3rd generation

Postby Bhassler on Thu Dec 22, 2022 8:59 pm

Doc Stier wrote:As with other historical figures, some stories related to the martial artists of earlier generations, like the early Yang family masters, are undoubtedly either exaggerated or even totally fictional, but most likely based upon some degree of actual truth.

Accounts of other events, however, are described in the testimonials of multiple, independent eye witnesses who had nothing to gain in recording what they saw. Additionally, dishonesty would have been outed by other individuals who were also present, thereby refuting any overt exaggerations or inaccuracies.

Nonetheless, people will either believe or disbelieve such accounts according to their own personal biases and agenda priorities. At this point in time, it doesn't really matter to me, since historical events don't influence or impact my personal training regimen in any way. Only my own efforts can do that.

How many of today's top fighters, either Western boxers or MMA fighters, will be remembered by name for their respective skills 90-100+ years past their death? I'm guessing probably very few, if any, so you do the math. Is it really rational and logical to think that the enduring reputations of various Old Masters are totally unmerited unless validated with photos and film footage? I don't think so, but whatever.


We've seen plenty of situations in recent history where objective consideration of an event is shouted down by sensational narratives that get pushed to the public and eagerly embraced by those looking for... whatever it is they're looking for that can be supported by said narrative. Public agreement is not and likely never has been a reliable metric of truth. That said, I agree that one's personal training is all that matters, and care very little for history outside of my own lineage (and even that is more of a cursory interest). You were just so adamant about requesting specific sources for someone else's claims, I was wondering if you could provide the same for your own.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:25 pm

Yes it only matters to me what understanding my direct teachers had
Some could hold there own in any situation
Others had very little fighting ability but shone in other ways
Greatfull I met them all
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby Doc Stier on Thu Dec 22, 2022 10:21 pm

Bhassler wrote:We've seen plenty of situations in recent history where objective consideration of an event is shouted down by sensational narratives that get pushed to the public and eagerly embraced by those looking for... whatever it is they're looking for that can be supported by said narrative. Public agreement is not and likely never has been a reliable metric of truth. That said, I agree that one's personal training is all that matters, and care very little for history outside of my own lineage (and even that is more of a cursory interest). You were just so adamant about requesting specific sources for someone else's claims, I was wondering if you could provide the same for your own.

Fair enough, but would it matter if I do? You've already repeatedly made it quite clear that you adamantly disbelieve all reports of extraordinary fighting skills attributed to famed masters in previous generations, so why bother pursuing the issue any further, other than to look for additional confirmation of your unwavering bias?

Ultimately, the only way to really confirm or dissolve your doubts would be to learn and practice the same methods they did, seriously training these in the same manner as they did, and then observe the results. Poor results will confirm a negative bias, while unexpectedly good results will dissolve the negative bias. A simple plan, but not an easy plan to fully execute. In this way, experiential learning produces the most trustworthy knowledge.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby yeniseri on Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:27 pm

Wu Tunan was a "kook" to say the least, and reading through the lines, he was clever like the masters of yore in stretching truth because of his status in the social milieu.
That beign said, individual teachers of Yang style tended to be better representatives in their own sphere as opposed to this lineage rigmarole or fake fabulous bc.

There is no doubt that Yang usurped Chen style in the poularity and skill of Yang Luchan so it makes sense that often duplicated never following through with that former glory (done gone ;D ) which may even be exaggerated to begin with.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby Bhassler on Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:20 am

Doc Stier wrote:Fair enough, but would it matter if I do? You've already repeatedly made it quite clear that you adamantly disbelieve all reports of extraordinary fighting skills attributed to famed masters in previous generations, so why bother pursuing the issue any further, other than to look for additional confirmation of your unwavering bias?

Ultimately, the only way to really confirm or dissolve your doubts would be to learn and practice the same methods they did, seriously training these in the same manner as they did, and then observe the results. Poor results will confirm a negative bias, while unexpectedly good results will dissolve the negative bias. A simple plan, but not an easy plan to fully execute. In this way, experiential learning produces the most trustworthy knowledge.


You're trying to have a conversation based on things that I never said. I never said any of the old Yang's weren't fantastic, I simply said that the same criteria should be applied across the board with regards to evaluating any claims-- positive, negative, or neutral. All any of us can do is weigh the claims we've seen against personal experience and make our own evaluations as to whether or not those claims seem reasonable. However, it's the nuances of that process that separate the Titans from the trolls (I consider you to be much more Titan than troll, FWIW).

I believe the key is in seeking out the best possible sources of exposure for one's own experience. That could be great martial artists of any style, but also pro boxers or MMA fighters, old bouncers, cops, and criminals, or special forces operatives or great coaches or whatever-- it really depends on what one's interested in. (There are those here who are in some of those categories, themselves.) From there, I like to assume that my lineage patriarch *was* fantastic, then compare what I'm currently learning against the goals developed by my exposure to contemporary experts. If there are gaps, why? Where do I look to fill those gaps, given that the needed skills were at one point embedded in the system? Etc., etc. I find that to have been a much more useful approach than just to say that so-and-so was great, therefore the popular version of their art done today is also great (or vice-versa). In my experience, one way leads to growth and the other leads to delusion. I've also found that some systems are up to the task, and have found that in some others it's just not there, and it's time to move along.

I suspect that while some folks are lucky and have gotten into a great situation from the start, those who have to search and are successful follow similar approaches.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby windwalker on Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:52 am

yeniseri wrote:Wu Tunan was a "kook" to say the least, and reading through the lines, he was clever like the masters of yore in stretching truth because of his status in the social milieu.
That beign said, individual teachers of Yang style tended to be better representatives in their own sphere as opposed to this lineage rigmarole or fake fabulous bc.

There is no doubt that Yang usurped Chen style in the poularity and skill of Yang Luchan so it makes sense that often duplicated never following through with that former glory (done gone ;D ) which may even be exaggerated to begin with.


An opinion to be sure, one not shared by some that I know. who's teacher's
were direct students.

Some questions posited by others here promoted an interest in seeing if
they were true or not..

Seeing if indeed there were any historical references to what is called
凌空勁 " Volley jin". Being trained or used by members of the Yang family.

Turns out there are historical accounts of them as well as other styles using the same skill set.


"Bhassler" noted the stories of old, remain stories for most unless they happen to find or run into examples that either prove or disprove providing one is able to suspend or be aware of their own biases allowing it. ...

In my own case,,looking for the proverbial 4oz moves / can influence 1000lb...prompted me to be open to examples of this in action...not something really looked for.


The stories of old aligned with my own experiences. For me no longer stories
more of an actual accounting related in the language of the time.
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:02 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby Shinobi on Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:44 pm

origami_itto wrote:
He also recounts a first hand experience on the mainland where Cheng Man Ching was patted on the back by an unnamed taijiquan master and was sick for three days until the master came and cured him. (T'ai-Chi Ch'uan Lessons with Master T. T. Liang p92, Ray Hayward, Shu -kuang press, 2000) that seemed to me to speak about a non-Yang lineage.

I'll have to look back through my recently read pile for other references, but I believe it was in relation to Wu of some sort. I read a lot and don't take many notes.


There is a similar story told in Steal My Art but the master who injured Cheng and sent him into a panic is actually named - Zhang Qingling. This apparently happened after Zhang patted Cheng on the shoulder after a demonstration at the Taipei Fire and Police Departments where Cheng was full of himself and saying he was number one student of the Yang family. Zhang praised him to Liang at the time but next day after treating Cheng told him he wasn't even number one hundred, never mind number one.

Doc Stier wrote:Jasoni-san: With all due respect for the late Master Liang, whom I knew from the late 1970's until his death, he was a rogue lone ranger of sorts. He rarely spoke a positive word about any of his teachers or predecessors. Thus, I would advise you to take anything he wrote or said about other practitioners with a healthy dose of skepticism.


Without knowing him personally, I'm a fan of Liang and his eccentric character but I've thought for a long time to take his stories with a pinch of salt (including the one above). Still, one comment about one of his teachers, Li Jinfei, I thought was straightforward but very nice: 'He was an excellent man. His art was beautiful'.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby origami_itto on Sun Dec 25, 2022 8:30 pm

Shinobi wrote:
origami_itto wrote:
He also recounts a first hand experience on the mainland where Cheng Man Ching was patted on the back by an unnamed taijiquan master and was sick for three days until the master came and cured him. (T'ai-Chi Ch'uan Lessons with Master T. T. Liang p92, Ray Hayward, Shu -kuang press, 2000) that seemed to me to speak about a non-Yang lineage.

I'll have to look back through my recently read pile for other references, but I believe it was in relation to Wu of some sort. I read a lot and don't take many notes.


There is a similar story told in Steal My Art but the master who injured Cheng and sent him into a panic is actually named - Zhang Qingling. This apparently happened after Zhang patted Cheng on the shoulder after a demonstration at the Taipei Fire and Police Departments where Cheng was full of himself and saying he was number one student of the Yang family. Zhang praised him to Liang at the time but next day after treating Cheng told him he wasn't even number one hundred, never mind number one.

Doc Stier wrote:Jasoni-san: With all due respect for the late Master Liang, whom I knew from the late 1970's until his death, he was a rogue lone ranger of sorts. He rarely spoke a positive word about any of his teachers or predecessors. Thus, I would advise you to take anything he wrote or said about other practitioners with a healthy dose of skepticism.


Without knowing him personally, I'm a fan of Liang and his eccentric character but I've thought for a long time to take his stories with a pinch of salt (including the one above). Still, one comment about one of his teachers, Li Jinfei, I thought was straightforward but very nice: 'He was an excellent man. His art was beautiful'.


All fair points, but we also know beyond any doubt that Yang Cheng Fu and Cheng Man Ching are straight up liars.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby Quigga on Mon Dec 26, 2022 7:06 am

How so?
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby origami_itto on Mon Dec 26, 2022 8:34 am

Quigga wrote:How so?

They collaborated on a book together and the introduction recounted a story of watching Yang Lu Chan teaching students and family in the courtyard.
He died eleven years before Yang Cheng Fu was born.
Last edited by origami_itto on Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:23 pm

I have never read that one
Where is it written
The one thing I know is when CMC died a lot of tough men cried openly
Some of them Had been jungle fighters in WW2 against the Japanese
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:48 pm

Yang Lu-Chan died in 1872, 11 years before before his grandson Yang Cheng-Fu was born in 1883.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby origami_itto on Mon Dec 26, 2022 6:31 pm

Doc Stier wrote:Yang Lu-Chan died in 1872, 11 years before before his grandson Yang Cheng-Fu was born in 1883.

Fixed.
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Dec 26, 2022 9:47 pm

But where was it written
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Re: 3rd generation

Postby Trip on Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:37 am

wayne hansen wrote:But where was it written


The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan
By Yang Chengfu
Translated by Louis Swaim

Yang Chengfu’s Preface
When I was young I would see my late grandfather, Mr. Yang Luchan, leading my uncles, relatives, and followers in their earnest daily Taijiquan training. Some in solo form training, some in partner practice, they practiced day and night without cease. Intellectually, I harbored doubts, considering it like the method of only engaging one enemy, which Xiang Ji scorned learning.1 For me, I would one day undertake the study of engaging ten thousand enemies.


When I had grown a bit older, my late uncle, Banhou, directed me to study with him. Later, no longer able to conceal my doubts, I told him my honest opinion. My late father, Jianhou, angrily denounced my thinking, saying, “Oh, what kind of talk is that? Your grandfather handed this art down as our family’s legacy. Now you want to abandon our vocation (zhui jiqiu)!”2
Grandfather quickly stopped him, saying,

“This is not something you can force on a child.” He soothed me with his hand and said, Sit down and let me tell you. This art that I practice and teach to others is not for taking on enemies, but for protecting one’s body. It is not for saving the world, but for helping the nation. The gentle¬men (junzi) of today know only that our nations troubles come from poverty, they still do not understand that our nation’s sickness lies in its weakness. Therefore, those formulating our national poli¬cies vie for plans to save us from poverty, but I have yet to hear a plan to rouse the failing or raise up the weakened. Yet this country is riddled with disease. Who can respond by taking up this great responsibility? This longstanding weakness, then, is this poverty; poverty in fact originates in weakness.

Therefore, those formulating our national policies vie for plans to save us from poverty, but I have yet to hear a plan to rouse the failing or raise up the weakened. Yet this country is riddled with disease. Who can respond by taking up this great responsibility? This longstanding weakness, then, is this poverty; poverty in fact originates in weakness. Looking at the growing strength in the various nations, there are none that do not take strengthening their people as the first step. Without even mention¬ing the grandeur and distinction of Europe and America, there is also the island nation of the dwarf Japanese, who while surely short in physique are yet strong and unyielding.3 When matched face-to-face with the gaunt and emaciated men of our nation, in deciding victory or defeat, is there any need for divination on what the outcome would be? If so, then the proper path for saving the nation is certainly to recognize the urgency of saving ourselves from weakness. To neglect this, one may as well have no plan, for it is like treating only the surface (yi yi mo).
Pg 28


My late grandfather further said,
Taijiquan was created by Zhang Sanfeng of the late Song Dynasty, and was transmitted through the elders Wang Zongyue, Chen Zhoutong, Zhang Songxi, and Jiang Fa, each succeeding the other without interruption. Chen Changxin was Mr. Jiang Fa’s only disciple. Their art was based on what is natural, and took form in a way never far from Taiji (great polarity). It comprised thirteen fundamental forms, but the moving applications are inexhaustible. The movement is of the body, and reaches the spiritual. Therefore, unless one accomplishes long training, it will be difficult to obtain the subtle knowledge. I am not lacking in students, yet it is dif¬ficult to say even if Banhou is among those who have obtained the consummate skill (lu huo chun qing).8 Still, when discussing the strengthening of one’s self (qiang shen), one day yields one days benefits; one year yields one year’s results. Once a child understands this, he will be able to carry out my wish.
Pg 29
Last edited by Trip on Tue Dec 27, 2022 1:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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