if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby johnwang on Sun Jan 01, 2023 12:53 pm

Old CMA said, "If you can do Tantui 10 times daily, heat and cold won't bother you for the rest of your life." A Tantui form contains about 43 moves. 10 times make it 430 moves. IMO, as long as you can move your body with punches and kicks for 430 moves non-stop. It doesn't matter which style that you train, you should be able to get the same benefit.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby everything on Sun Jan 01, 2023 1:58 pm

my "daily kicking" is "on the ball". arguably requires more intricate stepping than something like baguazhang, but this still lacks high kicks, low stances, and more.

the "hot hand trick" is a different topic, kind of interesting in a "qi trivia" or "stupid qi tricks" way.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby origami_itto on Sun Jan 01, 2023 4:36 pm

johnwang wrote:Old CMA said, "If you can do Tantui 10 times daily, heat and cold won't bother you for the rest of your life." A Tantui form contains about 43 moves. 10 times make it 430 moves. IMO, as long as you can move your body with punches and kicks for 430 moves non-stop. It doesn't matter which style that you train, you should be able to get the same benefit.

When you're sick your body temperature can raise to over 100 degrees without any physical exertion.
You don't need to do heavy exercise to heat up.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby johnwang on Sun Jan 01, 2023 4:55 pm

origami_itto wrote:When you're sick your body temperature can raise to over 100 degrees without any physical exertion.
You don't need to do heavy exercise to heat up.

My medical doctor will never agree with me on this. When I were young, everytime that I had high temperature, I always did 30 tornado kicks non-stop. I could get a good sweat after that, my temperature would drop. It always worked for me.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby edededed on Mon Jan 02, 2023 9:52 pm

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:Tai Chi was my first art, ...

When I was 7, Taiji was my 1st art. I learned from a monk who was my next door neighbor in Taiwan. One day I got into a fight and I didn't know how to use Taij, I lost faith in my 1st Taiji teacher. Until I have met my SC teacher, I then relearn Taiji from him.

When I was 11. my brother-in-law from Liu He system (6 harmony) was my 2nd teacher. he taught me a "Bagua Quan (not Bagua palm)" open hand form and "Pi Shou Gan" pole form. One day I got into a fight again, I still didn't know how to use "Bagua Quan" in fighting. He stopped teaching me any more forms. He asked to to drill "1 step 3 punches" for the next 3 years. That day I started to understand how to train for fighting.

When I was 14, I jointed in the long fist information class offered by my Jian-Guo high school in Taipei, Taiwan. During the 1st day of the class, I walked toward my long fist teacher and asked him, "What will you do if I punch at your face?" I wanted to make sure that I won't just learn MA dancing from him.

During my college (TIT) years in Taiwan, I jointed in the TIT Kung Fu information class again. I continued to learn long fist from GM Han Ching-Tang's son Han Su-Yin. He really liked my form. He said all his students belong to class B. I was the only one belong to class A.

When I was in US, I invited my SC teacher to live in my house. I had learned SC from him for 3 years.

All my life, my goal in learning CMA is for fighting. Style has no meaning to me. As long as it can work in fighting, It's a good style for me.

When someon gets old, old memory is all that person has left. :-\


Wow, I didn't know that you learned longfist from Han Qingtang's son!

Anyway, I think in terms of CMA, "style" is basically strategy.

- Longfist specializes in long-range fighting with leaping, etc.
- Mantis specializes in middle-range fighting with certain favored tactics (e.g. trips, waist chop, etc.)
- Xingyi specializes in close-range power strikes
- Bagua specializes in striking while moving freely (and also being generally contrary)
- Taiji specializes in using softness to fight

In another sense, waijia and neijia are different kinds of exercise. These days, I think doing both is better for health (in that you can cover more types of exercises that way).
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby everything on Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:28 pm

extremely hypothetically, and after reading about Beng and Pao and just messing around with a long stick and kitchen tools, another reason I like the idea of starting with xingyiquan is you could start with some basic weapons. God forbid if you are actually fighting or some maniac attacked you with a knife, it seems like good "self defense" if you start learning with some basic hand-held weapons skills. Then it transfers well to the empty hand 5 "elements". I imagine that's how it was, back in the day, so it's "traditional".
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby johnwang on Tue Jan 03, 2023 5:54 pm

- Taiji "shoulder extend to arm" = XingYi Pi Quan.
- Taiji "snake extend tone" = XingYi Zuan Quan.
- Taiji "advance hammer" = XingYi Beng Quan.
- Taiji "fair lady work at shuttle" = XingYi Pao Quan.
- Taiji "???" = XingYi Heng Quan.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby johnwang on Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:07 pm

edededed wrote:Wow, I didn't know that you learned longfist from Han Qingtang's son!

He only had a small class in TIT (Taipei Institute of Technology). I assume college students are not as serious about CMA than high school students are. I didn't like him that much. He said, "I know everthing that your teacher Li knows. But I know something that he dosen't know". He taught me a 2 men form "扑按对打" that I didn't learn from my high school long fist teacher Li. He just helped me to polish my long fist forms that I had learned from high school.
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby edededed on Tue Jan 03, 2023 6:46 pm

johnwang wrote:
edededed wrote:Wow, I didn't know that you learned longfist from Han Qingtang's son!

He only had a small class in TIT (Taipei Institute of Technology). I assume college students are not as serious about CMA than high school students are. I didn't like him that much. He said, "I know everthing that your teacher Li knows. But I know something that he dosen't know". He taught me a 2 men form "扑按对打" that I didn't learn from my high school long fist teacher Li. He just helped me to polish my long fist forms that I had learned from high school.


:o I do like hearing stories about the old teachers though, warts and all! A lot of them were quite conservative I guess.

I didn't hear much about Han Qingtang's son before, so also interesting to hear!
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby gerard on Wed Jan 11, 2023 8:04 pm

Too much emphasis on kicks and all that shit when the real focus should be on:

I'm working hard on myself aiming at releasing all internal blockages.

I useful answer given here by Jason Rich:

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-adva ... rtial-arts


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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby yeniseri on Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:46 pm

gerard wrote:Too much emphasis on kicks and all that shit when the real focus should be on:

I'm working hard on myself aiming at releasing all internal blockages.

I useful answer given here by Jason Rich:

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-adva ... rtial-arts


As a Ba Gua practitioner this is an endless journey. I fight for and with myself 24/7.


It is not about the kicks but about the physical conditioning, the repetitions, the stamina, etc built within the specific jibengong (basic training)
If you can't raise your leg, or extend your forearms, etc then that is a problem becuase you have not mastered the 'essentials'. Stamina is the simpliest way I can convey the necessary criteria that one's arse doesn't get touched by a foot or a hand.

If you examine the taiji vs MMA connundrum with our favourite martial gadfly, it is obvious to see that all the taiji people who fell lacked the basic elements to contiine the melee after a few minutes. Have you seen that also? It is obvious on all sides ???
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby windwalker on Fri Feb 03, 2023 11:55 am

everything wrote:or have someone study these, esp from a young age...

would you most likely start with xingyiquan (seemingly the most "simple")?

then would you continue with taijiquan or baguazhang?

why?



The beginnings of all start from building basic understandings of movement intended later on to be used
as the building blocks for each of the methods outlined...The problem : training focus has changed due to changes and needs of
the peoples of the time,,, from when the arts first were noted...makes it very hard for students, even teachers not understanding the nature of what they practice,
for what, why and expected outcome...

Depending on focus of training and expected outcome, they do not necessarily build the same concepts in some cases depending on depth of trining
not allowing any other concepts to be learned ...

case in point

Zhang told Hu to practice only taijiquan, but Hu was not really able to let go of his xingyi.

He was already a great master, and thus it was very difficult to "throw it out the window".

Zhang kept telling Hu that his jin (internal energy) was wrong -

it was a xingyi type, not a taiji type of energy. Hu said that there was nothing he could do because he had been practicing that way for so long. Zhang decided to teach Hu the 81-Step form of taijiquan, realizing that unless Hu was able to let go of his xingyi it would be quite difficult to teach him Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan.


Last edited by windwalker on Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby johnwang on Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:44 pm

gerard wrote:Too much emphasis on kicks and all that shit ...

From the IMA point of view, why do you think that kicking and leg skill are not important?
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby Doc Stier on Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:03 pm

Speaking solely for myself, the study and practice of both Korean and Okinawan martial arts taught me the value and importance of good kicks as an offensive weapon in a fixed stance position, as well as the value and importance of developing and maintaining sufficient athletic conditioning, stamina, and endurance necessary to be an effective fighter.

My training experience in the Chinese IMA styles taught me the value of establishing a solid root through the feet, and the importance of developing the ability to maintain constant balance and stability while executing very rapid, agile footwork.

Although several basic kicks appear in most IMA form sets and drills, the use of the legs and feet in kicking is generally given less importance as a fighting skill than the strategic value of evasive footwork and agile mobility.
Last edited by Doc Stier on Sun Feb 05, 2023 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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