if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

[yeniseri]

Basics should mean what is called changquan today.

For the past century, the big 3 shows us that performance, point scoring and gymnastic range are the criteria for public acceptance and as a result physical conditioning tends to be lacking of any type of long term martial skill or display but if we truly examine this, the Beijing Sports Committee has explicitely stated this since Day 1. I have heard and seen that knee problems plague those who continuously do these type of movements due to the explicit display for the audience.
As I noted earlier in a thread or two, what was once called liuhebafa (6 combinations, 8 methods) the concept and principle, exists in all CMA., but it is rarely taught based on that concept and principle.

[Appledog]

Yensiri those are awesome ideas and I can tell you that some schools do in fact do that. So let's all try to make this the standard from now on.

But I have two primary questions. One, if you do this, when do you stop practicing changquan and just do tai chi? It's a big system. Secondly, do you have the time to add on to the front of your system or the time (and skill) necessary to integrate it into one system?

There is a story of an unknown changquan master defeating a famous tai chi master in recent history. If you are an unknown changquan master it may then behoove you to suddenly become a tai chi master. How do you stop someone who is a changquan master from claiming to be a tai chi master? There are already these going around, maybe putting a stop to it might help tai chi's reputation somewhat. We don't want to compete against changquan masters. We want to compete against tai chi masters. We need more tai chi masters in that case. Or, more tai chi masters with the minds of changquan masters, who are willing to compete. Remember, Tai Chi isn't a daoist art. Anyone who says so is trying to sell you something.

There are problems for sure. In our system it takes four hours to run through all the routines in full practice mode. Then, sifu says, if you *really* want to be good, you have to do it again

How can I do it again if I can't even do it right the first time Now, changquan...

[johnwang]

How do you stop someone who is a changquan master from claiming to be a tai chi master?

- The long fist GM Han Ching-Tang was also a Taiji master. People asked him why didn't he ever demonstrate Taiji to the public. He said, "We have more stuff to demo. No need to compete with others in that area". GM Han won't teach Taiji to his students until they have at least 3 years solid long fist training.

- My long fist teacher Li Mao-Ching also had published a Taiji book.

- My SC GM Chang Tung-Sheng was also a Taiji master. He won't teach Taiji to any student under 30 years old.

[everything]

Problem is the Rorschach test aspect. Everyone thinks he knows and may realize later it wasn’t so.

Xingyiquan and Baguazhang don’t seem to have that issue.

Xingyiquan almost seems self explanatory.

[Appledog]

How do you stop someone who is a changquan master from claiming to be a tai chi master?

- The long fist GM Han Ching-Tang was also a Taiji master. People asked him why didn't he ever demonstrate Taiji to the public. He said, "We have more stuff to demo. No need to compete with others in that area". GM Han won't teach Taiji to his students until they have at least 3 years solid long fist training.

- My long fist teacher Li Mao-Ching also had published a Taiji book.

- My SC GM Chang Tung-Sheng was also a Taiji master. He won't teach Taiji to any student under 30 years old.

My first teacher was on the US wushu team in the early 90s. He told me that it is impossible to learn to be soft if you have not learned to be hard. He insisted that we learn several foundational forms from northern shaolin (like, eagle claw, praying mantis) before learning Tai Chi.

So then it is settled. Adam mizner said the same thing, so did Yang Lu-Chan, implicitly. Every master of Tai Chi has first been a changquan master...

[wayne hansen]

Only so much time
Time spent in any other art is just wasted time
Good internal arts will give you all u need

[origami_itto]

How do you stop someone who is a changquan master from claiming to be a tai chi master?

- The long fist GM Han Ching-Tang was also a Taiji master. People asked him why didn't he ever demonstrate Taiji to the public. He said, "We have more stuff to demo. No need to compete with others in that area". GM Han won't teach Taiji to his students until they have at least 3 years solid long fist training.

- My long fist teacher Li Mao-Ching also had published a Taiji book.

- My SC GM Chang Tung-Sheng was also a Taiji master. He won't teach Taiji to any student under 30 years old.

My first teacher was on the US wushu team in the early 90s. He told me that it is impossible to learn to be soft if you have not learned to be hard. He insisted that we learn several foundational forms from northern shaolin (like, eagle claw, praying mantis) before learning Tai Chi.

So then it is settled. Adam mizner said the same thing, so did Yang Lu-Chan, implicitly. Every master of Tai Chi has first been a changquan master...

Okay but what about Panhou? Did Lu Chan start him with xingyi?

I definitely think having some clue about violence helps when approaching taijiquan as a martial art. Whether that is formal training in a cultivation system or just hard won experience doesn't matter as much but you have to have a sincere appreciation for the strength and weakness of an average human frame.

But by the same token, it's different. The things you learned to use might not be useful in a taijiquan paradigm. I know I'm still more likely to fall back on dirty street fighting when shit gets real. We've got to unlearn what got us by, or infuse our taijiquan with what we already understand. like Huang and Yang Jwing Ming.

[Bao]

Tai Chi was my first art, I have studied other things, but now it's the only thing I practice and I would never want to have done anything differently. Sure, I wish I could have met more teachers and more Tai Chi people earlier, but just finding a good teacher here in any martial art was about impossible. It just so happened that the best and most skilled teachers were Tai Chi folks. Otherwise, there was no other MA in my hometown except the most common Japanese styles.

My first teacher was on the US wushu team in the early 90s. He told me that it is impossible to learn to be soft if you have not learned to be hard. He insisted that we learn several foundational forms from northern shaolin (like, eagle claw, praying mantis) before learning Tai Chi.

So then it is settled. Adam mizner said the same thing, so did Yang Lu-Chan, implicitly. Every master of Tai Chi has first been a changquan master...

Don't agree. Might be better for kids who can't focus to start with hard styles, otherwise I can't see any reason.

I started with Tai Chi Chuan, this was my first martial art. Had no problem learning how to become soft. Actually, I was quite tense as a a kid and had bad motor skills. My Tai Chi practice helped me tremendously. In fact I became better in everything I did in school, and it happened quite fast. This is probably why I fell in love with the art and why I continued and practiced every day. I found it extremely rewarding in every possible way.

What you really need, as a tai chi practitioner is fighting practice as sparring. You need to learn how different people act and think while fighting. So a few years later, I studied Shaolin sanda and thai boxing just to learn about fighting. Never mixed anything into my tai chi. In fact, I found Muai Thai especially extremely boring and repetitive, didn't give me anything. I still found doing my Tai Chi form slowly more rewarding.

Only so much time
Time spent in any other art is just wasted time
Good internal arts will give you all u need

Wholeheartedly agree.

[windwalker]

My first teacher was on the US wushu team in the early 90s. He told me that it is impossible to learn to be soft if you have not learned to be hard.
He insisted that we learn several foundational forms from northern shaolin (like, eagle claw, praying mantis) before learning Tai Chi.

So then it is settled. Adam mizner said the same thing, so did Yang Lu-Chan, implicitly. Every master of Tai Chi has first been a changquan master...

The idea of soft kinda misleading....loose, flexible, might be a better way of looking at it...
Wushu, often described as soft style, by non-Chinese stylist practicing other methods.

Different teachers have different experiences.


Think the most important one is "fighting"
if one is teaching taiji as a method of "fighting"


Wushu, pretty hard to learn, very demanding,,,,having its own priorities....

fighting not one of them

One should be clear in ones practice....
something I ask those I work with...

Don't know how to teach taiji for health or as a qi gong practice....
for those looking for that, I recommend them to others who do..

[johnwang]

Tai Chi was my first art, ...

When I was 7, Taiji was my 1st art. I learned from a monk who was my next door neighbor in Taiwan. One day I got into a fight and I didn't know how to use Taij, I lost faith in my 1st Taiji teacher. Until I have met my SC teacher, I then relearn Taiji from him.

When I was 11. my brother-in-law from Liu He system (6 harmony) was my 2nd teacher. he taught me a "Bagua Quan (not Bagua palm)" open hand form and "Pi Shou Gan" pole form. One day I got into a fight again, I still didn't know how to use "Bagua Quan" in fighting. He stopped teaching me any more forms. He asked to to drill "1 step 3 punches" for the next 3 years. That day I started to understand how to train for fighting.

When I was 14, I jointed in the long fist information class offered by my Jian-Guo high school in Taipei, Taiwan. During the 1st day of the class, I walked toward my long fist teacher and asked him, "What will you do if I punch at your face?" I wanted to make sure that I won't just learn MA dancing from him.

During my college (TIT) years in Taiwan, I jointed in the TIT Kung Fu information class again. I continued to learn long fist from GM Han Ching-Tang's son Han Su-Yin. He really liked my form. He said all his students belong to class B. I was the only one belong to class A.

When I was in US, I invited my SC teacher to live in my house. I had learned SC from him for 3 years.

All my life, my goal in learning CMA is for fighting. Style has no meaning to me. As long as it can work in fighting, It's a good style for me.

When someon gets old, old memory is all that person has left.

[everything]

similar experience as Bao. only b/c my dad liked tai chi so taught me a little.

"fighting" would be interesting. like Rampage Jackson. 100s of fights obviously taught him a lot, but put him up against highly trained guys (like Fedor), and the difference becomes so clear. once it's another guy with just as much physical and athletic talent, the refined skill ends up showing through so much more. once they're past their athletic peak, it gets just sad.

[everything]

Tai Chi was my first art, ...

When I was 7, Taiji was my 1st art. I learned from a monk who was my next door neighbor in Taiwan. One day I got into a fight and I didn't know how to use Taij, I lost faith in my 1st Taiji teacher. Until I have met my SC teacher, I then relearn Taiji from him.

When I was 11. my brother-in-law from Liu He system (6 harmony) was my 2nd teacher. he taught me a "Bagua Quan (not Bagua palm)" open hand form and "Pi Shou Gan" pole form. One day I got into a fight again, I still didn't know how to use "Bagua Quan" in fighting. He stopped teaching me any more forms. He asked to to drill "1 step 3 punches" for the next 3 years. That day I started to understand how to train for fighting.

When I was 14, I jointed in the long fist information class offered by my Jian-Guo high school in Taipei, Taiwan. During the 1st day of the class, I walked toward my long fist teacher and asked him, "What will you do if I punch at your face?" I wanted to make sure that I won't just learn MA dancing from him.

During my college (TIT) years in Taiwan, I jointed in the TIT Kung Fu information class again. I continued to learn long fist from GM Han Ching-Tang's son Han Su-Yin. He really liked my form. He said all his students belong to class B. I was the only one belong to class A.

When I was in US, I invited my SC teacher to live in my house. I had learned SC from him for 3 years.

All my life, my goal in learning CMA is for fighting. Style has no meaning to me. As long as it can work in fighting, It's a good style for me.

When someon gets old, old memory is all that person has left.

these old memories make some good stories for the rest of us, though. each one of those sections should be a chapter or short story.

[windwalker]

interesting common theme

Lost a match in Korea using what was called plum flower mantis as taught by my teacher at the time Mr. Park.. against a kick boxer who had been watching our practice..

Started taiji looking for answers, as a way to improve my practice in CMA on advice from an Aikido friend suggesting it would help my practice.

Prompted a lot of introspection as to why and how I had lost,,considering most of my previous encounters using Tibetan White Crane had either won
outright or held my own...

Tibetan White Crane, my first CMA art. Had lots of sparring experience with other stylist using different methods, an exploration
into usage and proofing my method....

Truthfully, never thought much about taiji or those who practiced it..
Much of what the style seemed to predicated on, most fighters are taught or know not to do through experience..

This would change as my understanding grew, and finding what made sense in my own path...
In following different taiji practices, ending with my last taiji teacher dropping everything else to understand his method.

What you really need, as a tai chi practitioner is fighting practice as sparring

Totally agree with the caveat, that one must first really have the "taiji" skill set..what ever this means to oneself...
In my case the skill sets of my last teacher, followed the stories of old, answered the meaning of taiji for me...


Trying to improve my own practice and teaching method, did try to teach a version of White Crane, Taiji hybrid...didn't quite work out for different reasons
The idea of having the foot work and range provided by the different methods...sounded good..In practice the body / mind methods were too different to
really meld together.....Ended up having to detrain some of those I was working with starting them off with the White Crane first...

It did help to clarify, and deepen my own taiji practice, now understanding and not needing the other parts, finding all that was needed through
the method itself......

Have found that many CMA teachers teach taiji as an adjunct to their primary methods ....sometimes adding to the confusion
or depending on taiji practice,,,may not not be compatible with some types of taiji practices depending on what one seeks....


If one has the ability and "experience" of "usage" should be no problem teaching taiji as a first or primary method...

There seems to be some type of vibe that the practice of Taiji is not very physical, or difficult..
Never really found this to be true if one meets the requirements of fighting "usage"

If practiced as a type of qi gong practice or for health...
maybe its a little different. the requirements based on different things.

[johnwang]

He insisted that we learn several foundational forms from northern shaolin (like, eagle claw, praying mantis) before learning Tai Chi.

With my long fist background, I could learn the 108 moves Taiji form from my SC teacher within just 2 hours while I visited him in Taiwan. It usually takes me 3 months to teach the 108 moves Taiji form to my students if they don't have any CMA background.

It's just like ball room dancing, before you learn how to dance, you learn, fox step, swing step, cha cha step, ... first. Before you learn Taiji, you learn horse stance, bow-arrow stance, golden rooster stance, striking tiger stance, ... When you learn the Taiji form, you can just pay attention on the transition between stances.

[wayne hansen]

Hair and skin of the tiger