if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:12 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Hair and skin of the tiger

In ballroom dancing, you can learn how to dance in bronze level. In order to be good, you have to achieve silver level and then gold level. That takes money and time. Some people learn fast in bronze level. Some people learn slow in bronze level. Some people can reach to gold level. Some people will never reach to gold level.

Learning (know how to do it) and training (be able to do it) are 2 different things. You may learn how to

- use your body to push/pull your limbs,
- coordinate your hand with foot, elbow with knee, shoulder with hip,
- guide your opponent's one arm to jam his other arm,
- borrow your opponent's force,
- use circular motion to deal with straight line motion,
- ...

within 1 hour, It may take you life time to develop and master it.

A: After 2 years of training, do I have perfect hand and foot coordination?
B: Your coordination is still 10% off.
A: After 10 years of training, do I have perfect hand and foot coordination?
B: Your coordination is still 5% off.
A: After 20 years of training, do I have perfect hand and foot coordination?
B: Your coordination is still 2% off.
A: I'm dying today, do I have perfect hand and foot coordination?
B: Your coordination is still 0.2% off.
A: I assume this is the best that I can do in my life time. Hope in my next life time, I can do better. :-\
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby Bao on Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:34 pm

windwalker wrote:.

What you really need, as a tai chi practitioner is fighting practice as sparring


Totally agree with the caveat, that one must first really have the "taiji" skill set..what ever this means to oneself...
In my case the skill sets of my last teacher, followed the stories of old, answered the meaning of taiji for me...


If you haven’t developed a real Tai Chi shenfa, or ‘body method’, your Tai Chi fighting skills will obviously be shallow. Agree with that you need to develop Tai Chi skill sets. However, skills are only skills if they work against a non cooperative opponent. You won’t know if they work if you don’t test them. There’s also a whole lot of psychology when it comes to fighting and violence, some of it can be very hard to understand and hard to cope with if you don’t train to cope with it. You really need some training, otherwise you might be taken of guard or forget everything you have learned. Remember the self-proclaimed “Tai Chi Master who challenged Xu Xiadong, he really believed he had skills and that he was a master. Without some realistic training and reality checks, many would find themselves in the same place.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby windwalker on Thu Dec 29, 2022 4:51 pm

Bao wrote:
If you haven’t developed a real Tai Chi shenfa, or ‘body method’, your Tai Chi fighting skills will obviously be shallow. Agree with that you need to develop Tai Chi skill sets. However, skills are only skills if they work against a non cooperative opponent. You won’t know if they work if you don’t test them.

There’s also a whole lot of psychology when it comes to fighting and violence, some of it can be very hard to understand and hard to cope with if you don’t train to cope with it. You really need some training, otherwise you might be taken of guard or forget everything you have learned. Remember the self-proclaimed “Tai Chi Master who challenged Xu Xiadong, he really believed he had skills and that he was a master. Without some realistic training and reality checks, many would find themselves in the same place.


Why the interest in what others can do or not...

Who cares :P

maybe my writing is not clear :)

Some of the best taiji practitioners came from backgrounds in other CMA arts,,,,
understanding what taiji has to offer often made them the best coach's / teachers because of their back grounds..


Without some realistic training and reality checks, many would find themselves in the same place


like

A world champion Thai-style kickboxer was shot to death in the middle of a busy San Francisco street Friday after he chased down a hit-and-run driver who had slammed into his parked car minutes earlier.


The 4:30 p.m. incident began outside Gong's Fairtex gym when his car, also a Jeep Cherokee, was hit by a passing car. Enraged, Gong gave chase on foot, going a block east on Clementina, then a block and a half south on Fifth Street. At that point, Gong confronted the driver, who had been forced to stop as traffic backed up near the Bay Bridge on-ramp.

"The victim put his arm out to stop the driver, the driver pushed him back and then shot him -- point blank,"
said Marilyn Moore, a witness who was riding in a car on Fifth Street.

https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Fen ... 598674.php

couple of days before this happened stopped by his gym even talked with him,
thinking he might be interested in some of the taiji methods, useful in clenching...
guess not.... :P

In my own practice, work with those according to their level and time investment,
helping them to understand how to practice, what their practice is based on...

One should have clarity in what ever one does...

Happy holidays , best wishes in the new yr to all :)
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Dec 29, 2022 10:56 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby johnwang on Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:40 pm

Bao wrote:skills are only skills if they work against a non cooperative opponent.

Agree with you 100% on this.

Until one day I could use Taiji "cloud hand" to guide my opponent's back arm to jam his own leading arm in sparring, I could not say that I understood Taiji "cloud hand".

- Right arm makes a clockwise circle to block/grab opponent's leading right arm.
- Left arm makes a counter-clockwise circle to block/grab opponent's back left arm.
- Left hand press opponent's back left arm against his own leading right arm.
- Free right hand then punch toward opponent's face.

I then realize that not only I can move my arms as outward circles, I can also move

- my arms as inward circles (double spears strategy), or
- 1 arm outward circle, 1 arm inward circle (arm wrap and arm tuck).

Those are 100% CMA skills. Those skills doesn't exist in boxing, kickboxing, MT, MMA, or Karate.
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Dec 29, 2022 7:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby origami_itto on Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:42 am

johnwang wrote:Until one day I could use Taiji "cloud hand" to guide my opponent's back arm to jam his own leading arm in sparring, I could not say that I understood Taiji "cloud hand".

- Right arm makes a clockwise circle to block/grab opponent's leading right arm.
- Left arm makes a counter-clockwise circle to block/grab opponent's back left arm.
- Left hand press opponent's back left arm against his own leading right arm.
- Free right hand then punch toward opponent's face.

I then realize that not only I can move my arms as outward circles, I can also move

- my arms as inward circles (double spears strategy), or
- 1 arm outward circle, 1 arm inward circle (arm wrap and arm tuck).


Okay then add the circles of the waist and legs and you've got continuous spiral energy. One important piece of the overall puzzle for capitalizing on breaks and gaps in the opponent's power and structure.
Last edited by origami_itto on Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby johnwang on Fri Dec 30, 2022 12:49 pm

origami_itto wrote:Okay then add the circles of the waist and legs and you've got continuous spiral energy. One important piece of the overall puzzle for capitalizing on breaks and gaps in the opponent's power and structure.

This can be an interested discussion - power generation vs. speed generation.

If you follow the power generation guideline that

- You step in right foot.
- You then rotate your waist to your right.
- Your rotating body pull/push your right arm clockwise to your right.
- You step in left foot.
- You then rotate your waist to your left.
- Your rotating body pull/push your left arm counter-clockwise to your left.
- ...

You body method (body pull/push limb) may be perfect. But you can't achieve maximum speed this way. So power generation and speed generation sometime just don't go together. When you want to reach to maximum speed, body chasing arm is better method.

When you just want to use your opponent's back arm to jam his own leading arm, you don't have to generate maximum power. You just have to sacrisfy power generation with speed generation in this particular case.

IMO, as long as you know whether you are training power generation, or speed generation, you should be OK. The problem is some people may try to use

- power generation to achieve maximum speed, or
- speed generation to achieve maximum power,

they may find they can't get the expected result as they did in their training.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby greytowhite on Fri Dec 30, 2022 5:01 pm

I would have started with Xingyiquan, then Baguazhang, and then Taijiquan. I feel like Xingyiquan is a great art that is not focused on enough. Then Baguazhang on top of a Xingyiquan engine. Dependent on the art maybe Yiquan or Taijquan next. The way my Guang Ping seniors describe it, the Yiquan is the engine and then if we can link 2-3 Taiji postures together with Yiquan intent that's the entry to fighting with the art.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby everything on Fri Dec 30, 2022 7:42 pm

greytowhite wrote:I would have started with Xingyiquan, then Baguazhang, and then Taijiquan. I feel like Xingyiquan is a great art that is not focused on enough. Then Baguazhang on top of a Xingyiquan engine. Dependent on the art maybe Yiquan or Taijquan next. The way my Guang Ping seniors describe it, the Yiquan is the engine and then if we can link 2-3 Taiji postures together with Yiquan intent that's the entry to fighting with the art.


what I was thinking as well. except I have no idea about yiquan. another way to stereotype them superficially by movement patterns and "attitude":
- learn fairly straightforward, forward "attacking" movements at some different angles, applicable to empty hand and hand-held weapons with some smooth cross-over.
- learn more circularity and angles and interesting steps. learn super unique weapons.
- learn "back and forth", "watery" counter attack and "continuity"
- maybe yiquan is try to have all of that in "formlessness"

everything seems super complementary and that's before talking about anything "internal".
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby gerard on Fri Dec 30, 2022 9:47 pm

I'd never learn TJQ in the first place. OVERRATED.

Xingyi first.
Move to Ba Gua Quan and stay there. You'll open up and connect to EVERYTHING if your time comes for that to happen.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby everything on Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:18 am

gerard wrote:I'd never learn TJQ in the first place. OVERRATED.



;D ;D ;D :-\ :P
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:01 pm

I find real tai chi. UNDERATED
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby johnwang on Sat Dec 31, 2022 3:17 pm

It's 57F today with some rain. This morning when the rain stopped, I walked on the beach. I first did my XingYi form. I felt cold afterward. I then did a long fist form, I could feel warmer. I then tried my Taiji form. I felt even colder than when I did my XingYi form.

As fas as the form training can keep me warm in the outdoor cold winter,

Taiji < XingYi < long fist

Since each and every move of the Taiji form have to be coordinated with my breathing speed (a move is either an inhale, or an exhale), I can't speed up my Taiji form. I can't generate enough body heat to keep me warm.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby Bao on Sun Jan 01, 2023 8:24 am

johnwang wrote:It's 57F today with some rain. This morning when the rain stopped, I walked on the beach. I first did my XingYi form. I felt cold afterward. I then did a long fist form, I could feel warmer. I then tried my Taiji form. I felt even colder than when I did my XingYi form.

As fas as the form training can keep me warm in the outdoor cold winter,

Taiji < XingYi < long fist

Since each and every move of the Taiji form have to be coordinated with my breathing speed (a move is either an inhale, or an exhale), I can't speed up my Taiji form. I can't generate enough body heat to keep me warm.


Funny, I have the opposite experience. No other practice makes me as warm as Tai Chi.

I remember when I was traveling in Shanghai with my wife about 20 years ago. This was a while after we had met, before we were married. It was in October and we had been out late in the evening and it was cold and rainy. As we sat down in the hotel room, she complained about her cold hands. I felt them and they were really cold. Mine were also cold. I put my hands close together and starting to move in small circles for about 20 seconds or so. I put her hands in my hands, she could feel that they had turned very hot. She looked at me and said: "Now I believe in Qi".

Funny she said that, I myself am still not a big believer in any kind of energy. But qi or not, I know what training can do. The last winters, sure not very cold ones, but still, when everyone is wearing hats and gloves, I usually go out with not more than my winter jacket and often keep it open. If I feel cold, I just relax better and make small "internal" almost invisible movements (here, I won't go into how.) and my whole body gets warm.

I believe that this skill solely comes from small frame practice. Small frame practice means the you store and circulate the energy or movements. Large frame is important practice as well, it means that you learn how to internally stretch and learn how to bring out the strength from the center to the fingertips (this sounds too fuzzy as well, I know). However when you practice medium and large frame, you keep releasing the energy all of the time, you don't spend time building up the internal movement and keep circulating it as with small frame practice.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Jan 01, 2023 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby origami_itto on Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:16 am

Bao wrote:
johnwang wrote:It's 57F today with some rain. This morning when the rain stopped, I walked on the beach. I first did my XingYi form. I felt cold afterward. I then did a long fist form, I could feel warmer. I then tried my Taiji form. I felt even colder than when I did my XingYi form.

As fas as the form training can keep me warm in the outdoor cold winter,

Taiji < XingYi < long fist

Since each and every move of the Taiji form have to be coordinated with my breathing speed (a move is either an inhale, or an exhale), I can't speed up my Taiji form. I can't generate enough body heat to keep me warm.


Funny, I have the opposite experience. No other practice makes me as warm as Tai Chi.

I remember when I was traveling in Shanghai with my wife about 20 years ago. This was a while after we had met, before we were married. It was in October and we had been out late in the evening and it was cold and rainy. As we sat down in the hotel room, she complained about her cold hands. I felt them and they were really cold. Mine were also cold. I put my hands close together and starting to move in small circles for about 20 seconds or so. I put her hands in my hands, she could feel that they had turned very hot. She looked at me and said: "Now I believe in Qi".

Funny she said that, I myself am still not a big believer in any kind of energy. But qi or not, I know what training can do. The last winters, sure not very cold ones, but still, when everyone is wearing hats and gloves, I usually go out with not more than my winter jacket and often keep it open. If I feel cold, I just relax better and make small "internal" almost invisible movements (here, I won't go into how.) and my whole body gets warm.

I believe that this skill solely comes from small frame practice. Small frame practice means the you store and circulate the energy or movements. Large frame is important practice as well, it means that you learn how to internally stretch and learn how to bring out the strength from the center to the fingertips (this sounds too fuzzy as well, I know). However when you practice medium and large frame, you keep releasing the energy all of the time, you don't spend time building up the internal movement and keep circulating it as with small frame practice.


Same, but I don't know about the small frame part. As my practice has progressed I've been less affected by the cold. My palms stay pretty full and mottled and my wife always remarks about how warm my hands are in pretty much any weather. I was taught that we are preserving and circulating the energy in a medium frame practice.

When I am a bit chill, like practicing outdoors in winter, I find I'm pretty comfortable by the end of the first section of whatever Yang form I'm doing. My fingers start out painfully cold and wind up warm and comfy.
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Re: if you were able to study the Big 3 from scratch

Postby Bao on Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:45 am

origami_itto wrote: I was taught that we are preserving and circulating the energy in a medium frame practice.


You can do that. I generalize too much. Thanks.
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