Broken energy Taiji

[Shinobi]

XIang Kairen wrote this in 1929:

''Yang Luchan’s art is only a hundred years old, but already his teachings are very different from Chen Jifu’s. For that matter, Wu Jianquan learned from the Yang family, and yet his version is distinct from Yang Chengfu’s.
Even more peculiar is that Yang Chengfu’s elder brother Yang Mengxiang [Shaohou] learned in the very same family, and yet his Taiji is only practiced as a broken-energy version, each technique expressing power, releasing a vocalized thumping no different from external styles of boxing. And apart from Yang Mengxiang, there is no other Taiji Boxing practitioner in Beiping using broken energy. I once asked Chen Jifu if among the practitioners in the Chen Family Village there is a version that practices broken energy. He said there is not.
I think that if it is considered good for Taiji to be practiced with broken energy, then it would be to miss the whole point of Taiji theory. It would turn a limitlessness of technique into a limited set of techniques, and this would do more harm than good to the future of Taiji Boxing.''

Is he oversimplifying when he says this way of doing things is no different to external styles of boxing? This was written when both men were still alive but I'm aware of no division or argument between the two brothers regarding how they did their Taiji, or was there?

[wayne hansen]

As far as I knew there wasn’t much difference between yang and Wu back then
Even today it is pretty slight and only on a surface level

[johnwang]

using broken energy. ... no different from external styles of boxing.

What do you mean "broken energy"? Are you talking about solo training only? Boxing has no form. There is no need for a boxer to compress and release non-stop for the next 30 minutes. Afte a Taiji master drops his opponent with his punch, should he "break his energy"?

When you punch your opponent, you generate energy. When your opponent is down (or moves away from you), you stop your energy (broken)? Your energy continue or not depending on how far your opponent is away from you.

Most of the discussion in this forum seems to talk about "solo training" only. In fighting, you have to break your energy when your opponent is away from you, otherwise you are wasting your energy.

[Shinobi]

using broken energy. ... no different from external styles of boxing.

What do you mean "broken energy"? Are you talking about solo training only? Boxing has no form. There is no need for a boxer to compress and release non-stop for the next 30 minutes. Afte a Taiji master drops his opponent with his punch, should he "break his energy"?

When you punch your opponent, you generate energy. When your opponent is down (or moves away from you), you stop your energy (broken)? Your energy continue or not depending on how far your opponent is away from you.

Most of the discussion in this forum seems to talk about "solo training" only. In fighting, you have to break your energy when your opponent is away from you, otherwise you are wasting your energy.

That is just a quote from Xiang Kairen. I assume he was talking about how Shaohou expressed himself while doing the form.

[johnwang]

That is just a quote from Xiang Kairen. I assume he was talking about how Shaohou expressed himself while doing the form.

If we are talking about form training, Taiji should follow the guideline that the end of the previous move is the beginning of the next move. There should be no broken energy through the form.

[wayne hansen]

I assumed he meant fa ging

[origami_itto]

Wasn't it Shao Hou that said something like "the lotus root is broken, but the thread remains intact"?
I believe that was in reference to what someone did AFTER he touched and released them.

[Kelley Graham]

If you understand ‘unbroken’ energy. There is nothing that can be done to break it. What appears broken on the outside, is intact on the inside. Breath training is important, making sounds as needed when expressing power is natural. Do we say that the inhale changing to an exhale, breaks the qi? Nope. Just ‘cause there a sound and strong punctuation of the breath cycle doesn’t mean anything’s broken.

[johnwang]

If you understand ‘unbroken’ energy. There is nothing that can be done to break it.

I think the word "broken" is a confusing word. If you walk 6 steps, drill your Taiji "diagonal fly". You then walk another 6 step repeat your "diagonal fly". If you walk 3 miles and repeat this move N times, do you break your energy N times?

[Kelley Graham]

The original quote seems to say that, yes, the energy is broken and external. I’m certainly not sayin that.

[johnwang]

I think that if it is considered good for Taiji to be practiced with broken energy, then it would be to miss the whole point of Taiji theory.

It looks to me that in our previous generation, some people trained both solo form and drill. Some people only trained form without drill.

[Yuen-Ming]

Brendan’s translations, which are quoted above without references, are great at spreading awareness about old texts but should be taken with caution for what specific technicalities concerns. What Brennan renders here as “broken energy” is ‘Duanjin’ 斷勁 which is one of the many Jin/Energies of Taijiquan.
Duanjin is described in various texts and Brennan himself has it rendered as “interrupting Energy” in one of his other translations, probably because that text gives him context.

“Interrupting energy is when you slightly cut off the opponent’s internal power after you have drawn him in, then issue the stored power of your whole body right into his body. This energy is unusually fierce and is the most effective energy to use on opponents who do not understand Taiji energies or who understand them but have not perfected them, although it is truly difficult to train. But again the reason those of high skill would not choose to use it is because this kind of issuing is thoroughly sneaky and covert, not at all the way a real man would behave.” (https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... en-yanlin/)

[johnwang]

“Interrupting energy is when you slightly cut off the opponent’s internal power after you have drawn him in, then issue the stored power of your whole body right into his body.

This can be done by "抖(Dou) – Shaking". When your opponent tries to do something to you, you shake him (a quick push and pull). So by your definition, broken energy can be achieved by "shaking".

This just remind me that "shaking" has never been discussed in any Taiji training.

[Yuen-Ming]

This can be done by "抖(Dou) – Shaking". When your opponent tries to do something to you, you shake him (a quick push and pull). So by your definition, broken energy can be achieved by "shaking".

This just remind me that "shaking" has never been discussed in any Taiji training.

This is not “my definition” but one given by Chen Yanlin in the text translated by Brennan.

Also, “Shaking Jin/Energy” is another of the various Jin/Energies of Taijiquan, again translated from the same text above for your perusal:

“Beyond these, there is also shaking. While sticking to the opponent’s energy with your own energy, use power from your hips to shake. He will pop up with both feet, which will come down clapping the ground with a sound like slapping a ball. Those who are particularly good at this will issue with extending energy before the opponent comes clapping down, and then once he has been shot away, he will also bounce up and down with several hops. This energy is therefore very subtle.”

[Yuen-Ming]

Also, for more context on what the original post appears to convey as a wrong/mistaken practice, one can refer to the final sentence of 打手歌 (Song of Hitting Hands) where it says 「勁斷意不斷」”Jin/Energy breaks/stops but Yi/Intention doesn’t break/stop”.

Again, Brendan’s translation does not provide the same interpretation but just for your info https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... u-gongzao/