beng vs. pao quan

[everything]

can you talk a little bit about similarities / differences of beng and pao? it looks like pao quan has the other arm block up, while one arm punches forward. beng has the other arm kind of parry in. is that it for getting started? how about when using a long spear or pole or other weapons instead of empty handed?

[GrahamB]

I think everybody will have their own answer to this, but for me (and I know people will immediately say I'm wrong, but c'est la vie, welcome to the Internet.... ) the fundamental difference between beng and pao is that Beng is a jin - a fundamental type of attacking force used in Xing Yi, and Pao is not - there is no "pao jin". The main jin used in a Pao Quan is, in fact, Beng jin. It's usage is particular, and frequent, and that's why it gets its own "form".

There are 3 primary attacking jins in Xing Yi - Pi, Beng and Tzuann.

Sure to be shot down now, but hey, you asked what I thought, there it is.

[everything]

hmm I welcome the shooting down / some "correction" if someone has a different explanation, but that makes sense to me, kind of what I was wondering. thanks for the answers.

[johnwang]

Pao Quan is to lift a curtain and walk under it. This mean your body need to move under your lifting arm (the curtain won't move, but your body move). Since Beng has no such concern, Beng is simplier than Pao.

In long fist Tan Tui training, you train Beng as Tantui #1. You train Pao in Tantui #5. Long fist system considers Pao is a bit more advanced than Beng.

[everything]

ah thanks that curtain analogy helps it stick in my mind a lot more. i guess that's the same idea with a long spear or two handed sticks/etc.

[wayne hansen]

The difference lies in the parry not the hit
Even the strike differs in the direction
One beng like tearing cloth on a horizontal plane
Two pao raising along a diagonal path
Both have their own Jin built in to the technique

[everything]

very helpful, thanks a lot. it looks like pao is a little longer reach?

[wayne hansen]

People get too tied up in the spear thing
Think of Beng as a straight thrust twisting and digging in with downward energy
Pao as a raising diagonal slash

[wayne hansen]

In the 3 linking forms we have in one system each Pao is done in a different manner
I like the way it is done in our TST linking form best

[everything]

so pao also has some overlap with drilling it sounds like

[wayne hansen]

All 5 have as much in common as differing
Pao thé top arm raises across the 45 but the other arm shoots straight like a cannon ball out of the rim created by the other arm

[Bao]

I've always found my Pao stronger and more solid than my Beng. It's like Wayne explained, the shape of the rear arm and rear side of the body pushes (or shoots) out the punching hand. Otherwise, I prefer Tai Chi straight fist before the XY beng I've learned. I get the body better behind the fist and use more body and waist turning. XY mechanics tend to keep the center more straight forward.

[origami_itto]

I've always found my Pao stronger and more solid than my Beng. It's like Wayne explained, the shape of the rear arm and rear side of the body pushes (or shoots) out the punching hand. Otherwise, I prefer Tai Chi straight fist before the XY beng I've learned. I get the body better behind the fist and use more body and waist turning. XY mechanics tend to keep the center more straight forward.

So this seems to clash with my understanding of both fists.

In both beng and pao, regarding the upper body, the movements are partially powered by the turning of the waist.

In beng, one arm "punches" and the other "pulls" as the waist turns.

In pao, one arm "punches" and the other "blocks" upward as the waist turns.

In quotes because this is VAST oversimplification.

But in both cases, the centerline of the navel turns with the waist, as it does in every fist of the five elements.

My beng is exactly as powerful as my pao because I'm doing the same thing in both.

The footwork is a little different, but not regarding power so much.

[GrahamB]

You can't expect people who say they prefer Tai Chi to really understand what they're doing in Xing Yi

Just a joke. BUT IT IS FUNNY BECAUSE IT IS TRUE!

An article about the difference between the mechanics of Pao and, say, Fair Lady works the Shuttles would be interesting.

Let's ask AI what the difference between Pao and Beng is, shall we?

Pao and beng are two of the five elements or "fists" in xing yi, a Chinese martial art that emphasizes the use of body alignment and fluid, explosive movements.

Pao, also known as "cannon fist," is characterized by powerful, straight punches that are delivered with a snapping motion. The movement is said to resemble the firing of a cannon, and is used to strike the opponent's upper body or head.

Beng, also known as "crushing fist," is characterized by circular, crushing movements that are used to strike the opponent's lower body or limbs. The movement is said to resemble the crushing of an object, and is often used to disrupt the opponent's balance or to shatter their defenses.

Both pao and beng are considered offensive elements in xing yi, and are typically used to deliver powerful strikes or to break through the opponent's defenses. They are often used in combination with the other elements, such as pi (splitting fist), zuan (drilling fist), and hu (crossing fist), to create complex and fluid attacking patterns.

[Bao]

I've always found my Pao stronger and more solid than my Beng. It's like Wayne explained, the shape of the rear arm and rear side of the body pushes (or shoots) out the punching hand. Otherwise, I prefer Tai Chi straight fist before the XY beng I've learned. I get the body better behind the fist and use more body and waist turning. XY mechanics tend to keep the center more straight forward.

So this seems to clash with my understanding of both fists.

In both beng and pao, regarding the upper body, the movements are partially powered by the turning of the waist.

But in both cases, the centerline of the navel turns with the waist, as it does in every fist of the five elements.

Yang Hai, virtually no waist movement:
https://youtu.be/0pwzR2t1f30


Luo de xiu, not much either:
https://youtu.be/SNxeP-6-u50?t=160
(Not a fan of his XY though, too robotic)


My favorite version: This Shanxi XY girl, Su Ying, uses a lot of coiling in her XY and her main power comes from a vertical spine movement. Her Bengquan still doesn't use a lot of waste movement. She uses a short, sharp vertical movement mostly from the spine and focus the strength in the dantian:
https://youtu.be/PNPpwIoD0N8?t=30

My beng is exactly as powerful as my pao because I'm doing the same thing in both.
The footwork is a little different, but not regarding power so much.

I've learned two different Hebei styles, though I admit I have a rudimentary understanding only. I found the Sun style (from Jianyun) I practiced way too soft and watered down, though they have the Santi practice I appreciate the most (and the hardest one). The other one standard Hebei.

I found both of their Pao power generation compared to Beng their power generation different. Quite distinct differences. However most people I speak with feel there's no difference between them. But then again, I have never regarded myself as a XY practitioner and I don't practice it anymore, so how would I know what is correct?