beng vs. pao quan

[Bao]

What you advocate locks the mind into predictable patterns. Opposite of freedom. Partner practice and solo practice are the same, if you have an understanding of yi,qi,li. Which I alluded to re: aggression and control. Ultimately all movements have absolutely no purpose. Purpose comes from understanding yi, qi, li. Purpose is mental, not physical. Mental development is very difficult.

Sure ymmv… personally I don’t really separate internal and external the way I see many other people do. Thought, emotion, intent, breath, everything affects the body directly. What you do with your body have an impact on the mind and helps shaping emotion, intent, breath. I really see no point separating Yi li qi from the body. If you speak about Yi li qi in the internal arts, you also speak about the the body. If you speak about using the body in the internal arts, you automatically speak about Yi li qi. One is pointless without the other. If you have an understanding of XYQ, which I presume you do, you should understand the meaning of the Liuhe - the ‘purpose’ is internal and external harmonizing together as a whole.

[Bao]

This is why the solo training can only help you to "polish" some combat skill that you have already developed through partner training. The solo training won't be able to help you to "develop" any new combat skill.

Without imaging another person in solo training, your solo training will become 100% for health. It's no different from dancing.

Agreed. The correct balance and use of body structure comes from understanding about how to interact with external forces.

However, IMO, the correct use of the body for health also comes from the same body methods. If you don’t spend enough time interacting with partners, martial arts will be nothing else than gymnastics or qigong.

This is why I don’t like modern Tai chi curriculums regardless if it’s from Yang Jun or from some of the most popular Chen schools. What they do focus too much on solo practice only and how they do their forms have very little to do with real application. They don’t practice to develop any real Tai Chi body method that works against a real person. Because their understanding of balance is shallow or just wrong.

[Bao]

Your Bias has locked you out of objectivity and sealed you into a mental cage of your own making.

Struck a nerve I guess…

Remember that I didn’t address his own Tai Chi, I didn’t attack him personally and I didn’t comment his own skill. There’s nothing wrong being a businessman.

But I don’t think treating Tai Chi as a business is good for Tai Chi. I’ve never seen any person in large classes developing any sort of skill. Developing skill comes from studying privately and in small groups with a hands on teacher. You need to feel a teacher’s hands and be guided by feeling what he or she does. The whole concept of large classes is wrong, or at least can only help you a very short distance on the road.

[taiwandeutscher]

Yes, a nerve!
He isn't really family, adopted grandson, and the grandfather (I know, the other thread) couldn't convince anyone of the straight back leg, when in Taiwan in early 2000s. Instead, he refused to touch hands (with Chu Hungping, CMC indoor), and his so-called master-students didn't win a single phs game in a whole week.

[Trip]

Struck a nerve I guess…

Yes, a nerve!

Struck a nerve?
Wow!
You two should do a comedy act.
Cause your assumptions are way off base, but I do find them hilariously entertaining!

Remember that I didn’t address his own Tai Chi, I didn’t attack him personally and I didn’t comment his own skill. There’s nothing wrong being a businessman.

Exactly!
You didn't address his Movement.
That what I was pointing out.

It was really simple Boa.
Itto asked you a simple question about your post.

Tai Chi is different. In Tai Chi Chuan, everything moves together at the same time. The whole body should have a coiling quality ("silk reeling").

Do they, though?

Itto asked you the question and posted two videos of movement.
And he threw in a example a coordinated movement with the image of a train.

But, On no no no! You don't answer about movement!
Instead you go on a mini rant about your personal dislike of Taiji businessmen.

Turned a simple question about movement into a conspiracy about Yang Jun.
Wow, guys! But, Hey, continue.
I'm gonna make some popcorn and enjoy the rest of your comedy routine.

[Bao]

Itto asked you the question and posted two videos of movement.

But, On no no no! You don't answer about movement!
Instead you go on a mini rant about your personal dislike of Taiji businessmen.

Thought I explained myself well. Yang Jun makes videos to sell a product. What he shows is what he sells. If you teach a simplified mainstream Tai Chi, that should suite as many people as possible, of all ages, and teach it to very large groups, your instruction of body mechanics can not be very detailed. He obviously do not show any sort of whole body coiling, neither small or large, because refined, detailed movement is not what he teaches. The video has no silk reeling because it is not in his simplified curriculum. Again, as a businessman and as a salesperson, what he shows is what he sells.

Turned a simple question about movement into a conspiracy about Yang Jun.

I don't believe in fantasying up things. I base everything I say on facts and written sources (which obviously doesn't mean that I can't be wrong).

It says right there, on their own homepage, that Yang family Tai Chi is their brand:

"Yang Family Tai Chi is a brand of the International Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan Association. The association was created in October 1998 by Grandmasters Yang Zhenduo and Yang Jun..." https://yangfamilytaichi.com/about/

This is exactly what I said. So where is the conspiracy?

Wow, guys! But, Hey, continue.
I'm gonna make some popcorn and enjoy the rest of your comedy routine.

Wow, you are easily amused, aren't you?

Here's a joke you might find funny:

- Why was the math book sad?

- Because it had too many problems!

(I googled jokes appropriate for a 6 year old.)

[everything]

so for tai chi examples,

well there is a little bit of "lift the curtain" in both of these, I suppose

like beng


like pao

[Kelley Graham]

What you advocate locks the mind into predictable patterns. Opposite of freedom. Partner practice and solo practice are the same, if you have an understanding of yi,qi,li. Which I alluded to re: aggression and control. Ultimately all movements have absolutely no purpose. Purpose comes from understanding yi, qi, li. Purpose is mental, not physical. Mental development is very difficult.

Sure ymmv… personally I don’t really separate internal and external the way I see many other people do. Thought, emotion, intent, breath, everything affects the body directly. What you do with your body have an impact on the mind and helps shaping emotion, intent, breath. I really see no point separating Yi li qi from the body. If you speak about Yi li qi in the internal arts, you also speak about the the body. If you speak about using the body in the internal arts, you automatically speak about Yi li qi. One is pointless without the other. If you have an understanding of XYQ, which I presume you do, you should understand the meaning of the Liuhe - the ‘purpose’ is internal and external harmonizing together as a whole.

Are you even reading what I post? No one here is saying anything about internal/external. As for this ‘body’ you refer to, it doesn’t exist. The body is one system of sensory nets. Very complicated, leading to an illusion of a mind-body separation. Do not confuse this idea of a body separate from mind with yi, qi, li. You don’t get to simultaneously refute the importance of the internal/external distinction while citing the importance of integrating the two. Several issues have been raised here germane to the OP. You have yet to respond meaningfully. Changing the subject is not interesting.

[johnwang]

A: I train Taiji for health only. I don't care about combat application.
B: If you don't care about combat application, you should not care about power generation, speed generation, body unification, sticky, yield, follow, soft, ... You can be a healthy person without all of those.
A...

If you are A, what will be your answer for B's question?

[Bao]

Are you even reading what I post? No one here is saying anything about internal/external.
...
Changing the subject is not interesting.

You did. You said: "Ultimately all movements have absolutely no purpose. Purpose comes from understanding yi, qi, li. Purpose is mental, not physical." You spoke about movements and the physical, and it's you who separate the typical "internal aspects" yi, qi, li from the physical. I didn't change the subject. I replied directly to what you said. I said that I don't agree and I explained why.

As for this ‘body’ you refer to, it doesn’t exist. The body is one system of sensory nets.

Now it's you who change the subject.

You could turn it around. The "mind" doesn't exist. It's all about chemical reactions. Physical reactions in a physical brain and nervous system. Everything "mental" is something physical. Everything "mental" creates physical reactions in your body.

The nervous system goes through the whole body. When we use our body, we use it by moving our limbs, joints, shifting the feet, we don't think in terms of using our "sensory nets". Illusion or not, the body is what we actually use. The physical body is, in our own perception, what we are. Without the physical, understanding yi, qi, li has no Purpose.

[Bao]

A: I train Taiji for health only. I don't care about combat application.
B: If you don't care about combat application, you should not care about power generation, speed generation, body unification, sticky, yield, follow, soft, ... You can be a healthy person without all of those.
A...

If you are A, what will be your answer for B's question?

"A: I don't. I enjoy what I do and I practice what I practice because to me, what I do is rewarding. YMMV."

[johnwang]

"A: I don't. I enjoy what I do and I practice what I practice because to me, what I do is rewarding. YMMV."

If that's the case, the correct way of doing and the wrong way of doing won't make any difference to you (general YOU). Without combat application as the "guideline", CMA can be envolved beyond recongnition.

For example,

Wrong way of doing "double pulling" - both palms face down:



Correct way of doing "double pulling" - 1 palm face down, 1 palm face up:

[Kelley Graham]

Are you even reading what I post? No one here is saying anything about internal/external.
...
Changing the subject is not interesting.

You did. You said: "Ultimately all movements have absolutely no purpose. Purpose comes from understanding yi, qi, li. Purpose is mental, not physical." You spoke about movements and the physical, and it's you who separate the typical "internal aspects" yi, qi, li from the physical. I didn't change the subject. I replied directly to what you said. I said that I don't agree and I explained why.

As for this ‘body’ you refer to, it doesn’t exist. The body is one system of sensory nets.

Now it's you who change the subject.

You could turn it around. The "mind" doesn't exist. It's all about chemical reactions. Physical reactions in a physical brain and nervous system. Everything "mental" is something physical. Everything "mental" creates physical reactions in your body.

The nervous system goes through the whole body. When we use our body, we use it by moving our limbs, joints, shifting the feet, we don't think in terms of using our "sensory nets". Illusion or not, the body is what we actually use. The physical body is, in our own perception, what we are. Without the physical, understanding yi, qi, li has no Purpose.

nope. mental and physical describe aspects of our sensorum. mental does not equal mind, physical does not equal body. fuzzy language, fuzzy thinking. there's no direct relationship to turn around. faulty logic. besides neuroscience does not support your views. let's agree to disagree. we are well into the weeds here. still waiting for your responses to several well reasoned issues regarding the OP.

[johnwang]

If you have trained both Taiji "fairlady work at shuttle" and Xing Yi "Pao Quan", when you fight, if you have to use upward block and punch, which one will you use? Do you use Taiji on M, W, F, and Xing Yi on Tu, Th, Sat?

When people said, "Your Xing Yi has Baji flavor, or your Taiji has long fist flavor." What does that mean?

[Bao]

nope. mental and physical describe aspects of our sensorum. mental does not equal mind, physical does not equal body.

Ok, fair comment. I understand what you mean. I share some of your view.

let's agree to disagree

Sure.

still waiting for your responses to several well reasoned issues regarding the OP.

I looked through your comments and frankly said I have no idea what you want me to respond on.