beng vs. pao quan

[origami_itto]

Because IMA or not, we're dealing with reality here. Reality has rules. You can make up whatever you like to describe your subjective sensation but don't make the mistake if thinking its anything but that.

Muscles and bones hold your body up. Qi just regulates how hard they work to do it. You don't need to describe some mysterious energy that can't be perceived or detected or shown to affect the world in any way whatever in order to explain the phenomenon.

We're not 17th century peasants or cave dwelling Neanderthals with no means just spinning emotionally satisfying explanations of the rain and thunder God's activity and creating rituals to appease them.

We stand on the shoulders of giants and some folks just want to play in the mud.
What does your teacher say about all that?

If you say so, it must certainly be right... Have you considered that both things can be true at the same time? That there is something going on that is not up to quantification or scientific assessment, but that that thing doesn't negate the validity of the scientific way?

Well it can be perceived. Just not detected by instruments. Btw, I'm not here to claim the "paranormal 1 million dollar award" by showing telekinetic abilities or stuff

Why so prejudiced against 17th century peasants and cave dwelling Neanderthals? I'm sure they were cool people with interesting stories and stuff to share. I could see myself having a good time with them. That is, if they didn't attack me on sight bc I look and smell so different lol. But some mammoth steaks? Count me in. Or 17th century raw butter or cheese? Yum.

So don't be afraid of falling off of those giant's shoulders (perhaps we just have different giants lol ). When was the last time you played in the dirt?

I have more than one teacher so their opinions differ quite a bit. Sorry that pinholing me doesn't work that easily.

Hey man if it works for you, have fun with it.

[Quigga]

By the way, I wouldn't personally try to mix science with traditional practices. Vibration, strings, mitochondria are one thing. Telling people their behavior is "low vibrational" and thus automatically causes them to suffer, or even worse, that people attract negative stuff in their life like rape just bc there is some aspect inside of the victim that naturally pulls those events towards them, is a good way of manipulating people.

Either way, I'm not here to prove anything. Those who look sincererly will find answers themselves. There's no moral obligation or other imperative that says one needs to believe or practice something other than what one likes.

[Quigga]

Hey man if it works for you, have fun with it.

Same to you

[origami_itto]

By the way, I wouldn't personally try to mix science with traditional practices. Vibration, strings, mitochondria are one thing. Telling people their behavior is "low vibrational" and thus automatically causes them to suffer, or even worse, that people attract negative stuff in their life like rape just bc there is some aspect inside of the victim that naturally pulls those events towards them, is a good way of manipulating people.

Either way, I'm not here to prove anything. Those who look sincererly will find answers themselves. There's no moral obligation or other imperative that says one needs to believe or practice something other than what one likes.

You can find all kind of stuff looking inwards with no external direction and no means of discerning reality from delusion. Imagination is seductive.

Suit yourself, but at the end of the day one must ask themselves what they are getting from their practice and if their current paradigm is keeping them from getting more. Or if they even want any more I suppose.

I prefer incredulity. Show me, show me what it does, show me how it helps, show me what you do with it. If it isn't demonstrable or detectable it doesn't exist enough for me to worry about it.

Like... if this energy is holding you up, how come I can stand without it? Would it work if your achilles tendon was cut?

[everything]

You can’t get to the incredulous part without putting in the work.

Sometimes this is like
- oh you can’t dribble a basketball
- oh you can’t shoot
- guess those are useless, you’ll never learn basketball or beat Jordan so I guess I won’t learn that

Like it’s incredibly ridiculous on a “neijia” forum, nobody wants to do “neigong” because at infant level, you cannot do anything yet. Then people laugh at the idea itself. But that’s RSF lolol!

[origami_itto]

You can’t get to the incredulous part without putting in the work.

Sometimes this is like
- oh you can’t dribble a basketball
- oh you can’t shoot
- guess those are useless, you’ll never learn basketball or beat Jordan so I guess I won’t learn that

Like it’s incredibly ridiculous on a “neijia” forum, nobody wants to do “neigong” because at infant level, you cannot do anything yet. Then people laugh at the idea itself. But that’s RSF lolol!

No let's talk neigong, but let's separate the real from the nonsense. Making up random shit about energies is not the way. Reject scientific research and inquiry wholesale because it requires falsifiable theory is not the way.

Falsifiable - there exist conditions which, if met, would prove the assertion false.

There are no such conditions for these vaporous claims. We just say whatever we like and when pressed for details it's always and forever "oh you just haven't studied/practiced/believe enough".

Okay, fine, show me something that can't be explained with physiology. I'll wait...

I can see people dribbling basketball and shooting. There are even devices that measure them. The results are easily observable, reproducible, and falsifiable. When the basket misses the hoop there is no mystery about it and no need to hand wave away the naysayers. The truth is patently obvious to all who have eyes to see.

What is the goal of this alleged "neigong"? Better health? Jing->qi->shen refinement. Great. Love it. Let's do more. But let's be clear about what it is and stop muddying the waters with superstition and misdirection.

[wayne hansen]

Isn’t that just what you did on the 3rd generation thread

[wayne hansen]

Some exercises I have been doing since the 70’s thé noi gung has just kicked in
What will it do I don’t know
I just know it is something new and profound
I don’t tell most of my students about it because it means nothing to them
They won’t feel it if they don’t do the training consistently and correctly
What I see most people calling noi gong is just chi gung done badly
The secret
Have a good teacher
Follow what he says
Expect nothing
Too many people get blown here and there by every wind that comes along

[origami_itto]

Isn’t that just what you did on the 3rd generation thread

I did no such thing, merely relayed an account with as much validity as any other story about what a couple Chinese dudes did sometime in the 1800s. I speak authoritatively on jack and shit.

[origami_itto]

Some exercises I have been doing since the 70’s thé noi gung has just kicked in
What will it do I don’t know
I just know it is something new and profound
I don’t tell most of my students about it because it means nothing to them
They won’t feel it if they don’t do the training consistently and correctly
What I see most people calling noi gong is just chi gung done badly
The secret
Have a good teacher
Follow what he says
Expect nothing
Too many people get blown here and there by every wind that comes along

Conversation is conversation, but my practice is a steady progression. I can definitely tell things now that I couldn't discern a few years back. Making progress in one area I can feed it back into another and get further in both. The lowest vertebra being plumb erect and the spirit of vitality reaching the head top recently took on an entirely new meaning for me, for example, and that completely changed many aspects of the I Chuan standing meditation I've practiced for the last 20 years.

The best teachers I've had say do this for this do that for that and don't worry about that other bullshit. You do the exercises and you get results, or not. Not every seed sprouts. Just do what you can do and get what you can get.

But you see people talking and it's like they're writing programs for computers that don't exist. They're watering branches and neglecting the root.

Like I continously say, I haven't yet fully exhausted the stuff that is verifiable by western science, much less the stuff my good teachers told me not to worry about until it presented itself.

And so far, every new cool thing I've noticed or can do is firmly within the limits of observable and repeatable physical phenomenon. Oddly enough. And I have yet to meet anyone who realistically functions outside of that model.

[Kong Bao Long]

Seems after two pages "Beng vs Pao Quan" shot of the rails with little details.

What is the difference?

Beng Quan primarily uses Liang Yi to expand/thrusts into the target, and relies on the structure of the frame to transmit the mass. The drawing of the bow is a clear reference to the applications of such.. I could expand on this "my take of course" but for the sake of simplicity I'll keep it short.

Pao Quan uses fajin and snaps/explodes in the target using the structure to transmit the mass. The cannonball reference, where the body is the cannonball is applicable... I could expand on this too "again, my take of course" but for the sake of simplicity I'll keep it short.

Both Beng Quan and Pao Quan employ both Tang & Deng Jin's but they use them differently. Tang jin translate to force coming off the back foot (siting over the back foot and propelling your self forward) Deng jin ( the force created by dropping your weight over one or both heels to create a springing forward force)

Deng jin is done with the lead foot as well as the rear foot dependent on the tactical.

When teaching people who have taken some form of Korean or Japanese karate, (mechanics wise ) I like to relate Beng Quan to a thrust kicking with your fists and Pao Quan a reverse punch that you step into with whole body torque. That points them in the right direction has far as the shen fa that needs to be developed.

There's is way more going on in the mechanics of both (for example: the use of Ling with the fists in Beng Quan or Guo with Pao Quan...) but for simplicity sake the above is my take.

Big difference, big difference in their usage

[wayne hansen]

Good take
In our system we have 3 linking forms
They are basically the 3 in suns book
Each one has a different pao
If Pao is the ball where is the cannon

[Kong Bao Long]

Good take
In our system we have 3 linking forms
They are basically the 3 in suns book
Each one has a different pao
If Pao is the ball where is the cannon

Nice....
Hubei from Tianjin
Linking quan's : Wu Xing Quan, Lianhuan Quan, Ba Shi Chui, Za Shi Chui, Bazi Lianhuan... one could count Pan Gen also. (been a decade since doing two man forms like Wuxing Chui or Ann Shen Pao
yes I know them but only refer to them in functional reference perspective

as always the Wu Xing being at the hub of the wheel.

Excluding Mo jin .. (various precursors of the 5 elements)
A Yin and a Yang version of all 5 elements/ with short sub routines.

The cannon is the ground.

[everything]

how does that apply with a staff or spear, not an empty hand move. I guess it should be the same.

[Doc Stier]

"Not every seed sprouts".

That is clearly and obviously true, but why?

First and foremost, it is because the vast majority of students study and train in turn with each of their teachers for less time than typically required to master that art. Unfortunately, the skills and abilities most sought in every art only come with expertise.

Thus, relatively brief periods of time spent with every teacher, whether only a few months or a few years, just isn't enough to get the goods, even with the instruction and guidance of a great master. So unfair, I know, but it is what it is.

The answer is NOT to float from one style or teacher to another in search of 'secret teachings' or other imagined shortcuts.

There are NO SHORTCUTS!!!

All of my Asian masters were exceptionally gifted and talented. As such, it seemed highly unlikely to me that I would acquire expertise in their art with less time and effort than they invested in doing so. Of course, as ever, ymmv.