Whole body power - Xing Yi

[origami_itto]

No, it’s just physics. Speed is much more important than mass when it comes to power generation.

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 x Mass x Velocity^2

From a physics perspective that statement
1) Makes absolutely no no sense. "Power generation" is not a thing. Power is a measurement of work over time.
2) Is patently incorrect. "Force" is the product of "speed" and mass, so increasing either will increase the amount of energy carried/transferred by a force. You're basically saying that in the equation 6 = 2 x 3 that the 2 is more important than the 3. Like... how?

---

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 x Mass x Velocity^2

Again, ^2 means that velocity is squared, which means that as velocity increases, it has a much greater impact on the kinetic energy of an object than mass does. This means that if you triple or quadruple the speed of a moving object, the power of a collision will have a much greater effect than if you triple or quadruple the mass.

Kinetic energy means movement and the equation is about movement. Comparing with an equation as 6 = 2 x 3 is just silly and means that you for some reason can't understand, don't want to understand, or that you are trolling.

In the equation 6 = 2 x 3, 2 is NOT more important than the 3. But if change the equation from 2 x 3 to 4 x 12, then the 3 has changed more than the 2. 4 is the double amount of 2. 12 is 4 times the amount of 3. 4 x 12 is 48. So changing 3 to 12 increases the total sum more than changing 2 to 4.

I sincerely don't understand why you have a problem with a simple equation that proves that the increase of velocity will have a more impact on increasing strength than the increase of mass. Maybe you complicate things too much.

From the perspective of a human body, muscles only fire at the rate they fire. There is a hard limit on how fast muscles can make you move. Once you reach that, the only ways to increase energy output are to recruit more mass or increase mechanical advantage.

Well, there's a limit to how much mass you can put on your body.
But most people can increase the speed of their movements better and faster than they can put on weight or increase the size of their muscles.

Re: Physics
Most people look at the wrong end of the equation. The relevant acceleration (whether in F=MA or KE=1/2MV^2) is the negative acceleration on impact. The more solid and efficient one's structure is at the moment of impact, the more energy will be transferred and, hence, more damage done. "Leaking" power is a much bigger issue than an inability to generate power.

Exactly!

That is why I said that I rather speak about supporting a striking fist with mass, than moving mass to strike with.

The acceleration/speed/velocity is the first thing that is important.
Your structure/balance/support when your fist lands on the target.

It's harder to train to increase mass than to practice speed. Regardless what method you prefer, the body must give the fist a firm support. Even if you walk/run or fall into the punch, angles and timing must be correct to give the punch maximum support.

As i said in my edit. Your muscles only move as fast as they can move. I was originally responding to the force equation because I wasn't paying full attention when I responded.

When your muscles are maxed, the only ways to increase power are to recruit more mass or increase mechanical advantage.
Connecting the body mass into "one qi" to maximize the amount of mass adding to the force of the movement is the point of a lot of this training.

There is a greater difference in the mass recruited between a beginner and someone with training than there is in speed.

You're going to start pretty close to your Max speed, using almost no mass with no mechanical advantage. Your speed, the speed of your muscles, is pretty much set by genetics.

So if we're looking at the equation, there is much more room for improvement in mass.

Mechanical advantage wise, the trebuchet is instructive. The slow drop of the large mass becomes a high power spiral by the time it gets to the load, and the result is a much more powerful siege weapon than a catapult.

I can hit my heavy bag slow and without moving my hand very far and it moves a good bit, or not if I'm not properly connected on impact.

Hitting something with a stick, you hit a whole lot harder when you're wearing 50lbs of armor, and that's not because you're faster.

So then that other concern of leakage, you're moving fast, got mass, preserving and channeling as much energy as possible into our target. Much more a matter of finesse, control, and relaxation, IMHO.

But then as mentioned, its not about the effort your muscles put in, its about the work that the system performs on something else.

Also the mass recruited isn't about a SOLID structure, we can get the same power from a FLEXIBLE structure, and it isn't always about IMPACT. A bow doesn't fire an arrow by hitting it.

[Quigga]

Hey Origami, you asked me somewhere if that energy could hold me up if my Achilles tendon was cut on one side. Well certainly not on that leg anymore . But maybe on the other.

Sorry I couldn't find that comment of yours again.

[origami_itto]

Hey Origami, you asked me somewhere if that energy could hold me up if my Achilles tendon was cut on one side. Well certainly not on that leg anymore . But maybe on the other.

Sorry I couldn't find that comment of yours again.

HAHAHAHA, Yes! You still need that musculoskeletal system though is the main point.

[GrahamB]

Whole body power is literally the reason why these arts got the name "internal". One part moves, all parts move, etc. The 6 harmonies.

RSF seems to be becoming increasingly pointless - it feels like nobody is ever on the same page.

[origami_itto]

Whole body power is literally the reason why these arts got the name "internal". One part moves, all parts move, etc. The 6 harmonies.

RSF seems to be becoming increasingly pointless - it feels like nobody is ever on the same page.

We're rarely even in the same book

[Quigga]

The thing is though, at no point was I arguing against you or against what you said Origami. You may have perceived it that way. In the end, it may boil down to how many 'howevers' and 'yet' you can hold in your mind... Everybody's path is different

What starts to intrigue me is how every point, part, direction in the body and out can be of equal importance and magnificence. Everything appears to be a reflection. Embodiment of peace? Feels kinda boring, this no drama.

[Bao]

Your muscles only move as fast as they can move. I was originally responding to the force equation because I wasn't paying full attention when I responded.

Ok, fair enough.

I only spoke about the principle of that speed is more important than mass. I still stick with this idea. And I got physics to support this. I was not speaking about muscles or mechanics. Just that if you want to build power, you should think about speed/velocity first.

When your muscles are maxed, the only ways to increase power are to recruit more mass or increase mechanical advantage.

I don't really understand how you think. Building speed has nothing to do with maximising muscle strength or with using the muscles with effort. Rather you need to understand how to relax as much as possible. For fajin, I don't want to rigorously shake my body. I want to accelerate my movement from 0% to 100% speed in as little time as possible. It should take only a fraction of a second, preferably the fist should be so fast that the opponent has no time to see it or react. That movement in itself will have a lot of power just because of the acceleration/speed/velocity. At the same time, the body moves so that you fall into the punch or support the structure.

Ye I know, In Taiji and most of IMA, you should use whole body power, the whole body and every part move together. However, if you always move with whole body power, you will telegraph your punches. So you want to start disconnected and use "whole body power" at the end, when you reach the target.

You don't need more strength than reaching maximum velocity and hit with your whole body to knock someone down.

However, and again, you need to know how to relax. And you need to understand how to coordinate your body. And if you want to use Taiji jin, or any other internal jins to strike with, you also need to understand how to maintain a relaxed (yet connected) body when your fist meet the target.

In fact, there are so many things that are much more important than building muscles and mass if you really want to develop a good striking power.

There is a greater difference in the mass recruited between a beginner and someone with training than there is in speed.

You're going to start pretty close to your Max speed, using almost no mass with no mechanical advantage. Your speed, the speed of your muscles, is pretty much set by genetics.

So if we're looking at the equation, there is much more room for improvement in mass.

Actually, I spoke about the principle itself, not about how much beginners suck or how much muscles you have. All of this doesn't change a bit about the equation and the principle itself.

Hitting something with a stick, you hit a whole lot harder when you're wearing 50lbs of armor, and that's not because you're faster.

Yeah, you can wear an armour to the fight. Great.

I have never said that mass won't help. I said that doubling or tripling velocity has a much higher effect on getting more power than if you double or triple the amount of mass. You are still arguing about things I haven't even said.

[origami_itto]

Your muscles only move as fast as they can move. I was originally responding to the force equation because I wasn't paying full attention when I responded.

Ok, fair enough.

I only spoke about the principle of that speed is more important than mass. I still stick with this idea. And I got physics to support this. I was not speaking about muscles or mechanics. Just that if you want to build power, you should think about speed/velocity first.

Yep, and like I said, twice. In my initial response I was looking at the wrong equation because I was half paying attention.

When your muscles are maxed, the only ways to increase power are to recruit more mass or increase mechanical advantage.

I don't really understand how you think. Building speed has nothing to do with maximising muscle strength or with using the muscles with effort. Rather you need to understand how to relax as much as possible.For fajin, I don't want to rigorously shake my body. I want to accelerate my movement from 0% to 100% speed in as little time as possible.

The only way to make a human body move is through muscular action (either applying it or removing it) or external force. There is nothing else. Relaxing doesn't make you move unless you're holding some tension (potential energy) it keeps you from getting in your way. Fajin doesn't necessarily involve speed in the sense of moving your own body.

Ye I know, In Taiji and most of IMA, you should use whole body power, the whole body and every part move together. However, if you always move with whole body power, you will telegraph your punches.

I think exactly the opposite is true. If you're moving from your feet up, there is less showing up top, and the weight shift and waist turn such as in taijiquan change the vector and velocity of your point of contact making it more difficult to counter. Done right you might not even see the movement externally.

So you want to start disconnected and use "whole body power" at the end, when you reach the target.

Sure, but not to avoid telegraphing, more to remain flexible and fast. This is literally how I drill punching on the target bulb. But again, we're talking about one, limited application of whole body power, striking.. I mean really just punching, aren't we? There's so much more to combat.

You don't need more strength than reaching maximum velocity and hit with your whole body to knock someone down.

I don't understand what this sentence means.

In fact, there are so many things that are much more important than building muscles and mass if you really want to develop a good striking power.

I'm not talking about INCREASING muscle mass. I'm talking about utilizing whatever mass you have. If you're throwing a disconnected limb you have at best the mass of the limb behind it. The natural tendency is to just make a solid base and use small muscles to move the limbs relative to it, or for most of the "power" to "leak" due to disorganization. "Whole body power" is recruiting more mass, more muscle, or both to increase the force expressed by the body.

Hitting something with a stick, you hit a whole lot harder when you're wearing 50lbs of armor, and that's not because you're faster.

Yeah, you can wear an armour to the fight. Great.

Sure, why not? I'm speaking here directly about SCA style fighting with rattan "swords" and steel and leather armor. There is a significant difference in how heavy a hit you can throw when you are wearing armor versus not wearing armor. You aren't moving faster, if anything, you're moving slower.

Also a heavier weapon will deliver a much larger amount of energy to your target.

I have never said that mass won't help. I said that doubling or tripling velocity has a much higher effect on getting more power than if you double or triple the amount of mass. You are still arguing about things I haven't even said.

Okay, sure, doubling or tripling velocity will help more than doubling or tripling mass.

However, I find it hard to believe even the best training will allow you to double or triple the speed of your muscular action, and the amount of mass you can learn to get involved in your striking/throwing/joint manipulation can increase like what... tenfold? So I believe there's much more room for improvement there. Hence training wise, whole body connection is more important than speed.

Like this

[everything]

Whole body power is literally the reason why these arts got the name "internal". One part moves, all parts move, etc. The 6 harmonies.

RSF seems to be becoming increasingly pointless - it feels like nobody is ever on the same page.

We're rarely even in the same book

truer words have never been said on this forum

it's funny b/c we seemingly all like the same topic. maybe the only conclusion is the subject matter is difficult.

[origami_itto]

The thing is though, at no point was I arguing against you or against what you said Origami. You may have perceived it that way. In the end, it may boil down to how many 'howevers' and 'yet' you can hold in your mind... Everybody's path is different

What starts to intrigue me is how every point, part, direction in the body and out can be of equal importance and magnificence. Everything appears to be a reflection. Embodiment of peace? Feels kinda boring, this no drama.

Okay I can accept that, sure. I thought you said some energy was holding you up, not your body. The energy keeping your muscles at the correct orientation and tension are holding you up, and might efficiently channel the pull of gravity to the floor and back up, etc

[Kelley Graham]

Whole body power is literally the reason why these arts got the name "internal". One part moves, all parts move, etc. The 6 harmonies.

RSF seems to be becoming increasingly pointless - it feels like nobody is ever on the same page.

Disagreement is what discourse is for, not agreement. Please show me where ‘whole body power’ is in the poems and songs of XingYiQuan. If it appears, it will be in the context of my previous post. WOOD -> EARTH, etc. logically, whole body power applies to every action, and to everything, everywhere, so why speak of it as something with which IMA should spend any words explaining?

[Bhassler]

Please show me where ‘whole body power’ is in the poems and songs of XingYiQuan. If it appears, it will be in the context of my previous post. WOOD -> EARTH, etc. logically, whole body power applies to every action, and to everything, everywhere, so why speak of it as something with which IMA should spend any words explaining?

I don't know about XingYi, but in taiji, traditionally the people who wrote the books and poems were the dilettantes, and not the guys who knew what was up when the boots met the ground. So referencing literature of any sort as the de facto arbitration of truth is suspect, at best. Beyond that, declaration that something exists does not in itself convey knowledge of how to do it. So if discussion of the details of body mechanics is more helpful to some people than third party translations of archaic poetry, then so be it. In any case, arguing semantics for the purpose of categorically disqualifying all other viewpoints in favor of your own is hardly productive. The map is not the territory, and too often in CMA people get so attached to their own maps that they are even more confounding than the territory itself.

[Trip]

Re: Drop step
In the classic drop step, no energy is added by the legs. It's just done by putting your weight on the front leg and then suddenly removing that support.

Hey, B
This a minor point and possibly misunderstanding of you, but you seem to imply that Dempey’s falling step has no energy added by the legs?

Here’s a quote from Dempsey’s book Jack Dempsey - Championship Fighting, Explosive Punching, and Aggressive Defense

Stand in the middle of the floor. Point your left foot at any distant object in the room. Place your right foot to the rear and slightly to the right of your left foot (Figure 3).
Now-without any preliminary movement-take a long, quick step forward with your left foot, toward the object at which your left toe had been pointing (Figure 4).

! Just lift the left foot and LET THE BODY FALL FORWARD IN A LONG, QUICK STEP. The left foot should land flat and solid on the floor at the end of the step.

Although the weight of your body was resting largely upon your left foot when you stepped off, you didn't fall to the floor. Why? Because the alert ball of your right foot came to the rescue frantically and gave your body a forward spring in a desperate attempt to keep your body balanced upright-to maintain its equilibrium. Your rescuing right foot acted not only as did the slope of the hill for the sledding boy, but also as a springboard in the side of the hill might have functioned had the sledding boy whizzed onto a springboard on the side of the hill. The left foot serves as a "trigger" to spring the right foot. So, the falling step sometimes is called the Trigger Step.

I could be reading this wrong but Dempsey seems to say that energy is added by the rear leg.

What do you think?

[everything]

the "energy" to be able to "fall" comes from somewhere. even if we say in a vacuum that he is saying you are "just standing there, then fall", it takes energy to initiate the fall. assuming you are in equilibrium standing there. some of the overcoming inertia energy is still "rooted in the feet". if we get out of the vacuum and assume he is moving around against one opponent, the vacuum idea is obviously non-sensical. he is moving around. there is going to be "energy" from his feet. this should be obvious and common sense. if he says his rear foot acts as a spring, much more so. map is not the territory and all that, some maps may be different, some territories may be different. on a tangent, I don't think Sun was a dilettante who didn't write his own books which covered xingyi, baguazhang, and taijiquan. he seems to be one of the main people who grouped the "big 3" (that this board is supposedly about).

[Bhassler]

Re: Drop step
In the classic drop step, no energy is added by the legs. It's just done by putting your weight on the front leg and then suddenly removing that support.

Hey, B
This a minor point and possibly misunderstanding of you, but you seem to imply that Dempey’s falling step has no energy added by the legs?

Here’s a quote from Dempsey’s book Jack Dempsey - Championship Fighting, Explosive Punching, and Aggressive Defense

Stand in the middle of the floor. Point your left foot at any distant object in the room. Place your right foot to the rear and slightly to the right of your left foot (Figure 3).
Now-without any preliminary movement-take a long, quick step forward with your left foot, toward the object at which your left toe had been pointing (Figure 4).

! Just lift the left foot and LET THE BODY FALL FORWARD IN A LONG, QUICK STEP. The left foot should land flat and solid on the floor at the end of the step.

Although the weight of your body was resting largely upon your left foot when you stepped off, you didn't fall to the floor. Why? Because the alert ball of your right foot came to the rescue frantically and gave your body a forward spring in a desperate attempt to keep your body balanced upright-to maintain its equilibrium. Your rescuing right foot acted not only as did the slope of the hill for the sledding boy, but also as a springboard in the side of the hill might have functioned had the sledding boy whizzed onto a springboard on the side of the hill. The left foot serves as a "trigger" to spring the right foot. So, the falling step sometimes is called the Trigger Step.

I could be reading this wrong but Dempsey seems to say that energy is added by the rear leg.

What do you think?

I think you're right, and it would probably be more accurate to say that the legs don't actively add any force. There's an inherent leverage and likely springiness involved on the part of the standing leg that will affect the whole "falling object" dynamic. I mean, as far as I know, Dempsey invented the thing, so if there's any disagreement he's right and everyone else is wrong.

the "energy" to be able to "fall" comes from somewhere. even if we say in a vacuum that he is saying you are "just standing there, then fall", it takes energy to initiate the fall. assuming you are in equilibrium standing there. some of the overcoming inertia energy is still "rooted in the feet". if we get out of the vacuum and assume he is moving around against one opponent, the vacuum idea is obviously non-sensical. he is moving around. there is going to be "energy" from his feet. this should be obvious and common sense. if he says his rear foot acts as a spring, much more so. map is not the territory and all that, some maps may be different, some territories may be different. on a tangent, I don't think Sun was a dilettante who didn't write his own books which covered xingyi, baguazhang, and taijiquan. he seems to be one of the main people who grouped the "big 3" (that this board is supposedly about).

The energy comes from the bulk of the body being suspended in the air. The back leg will act as a fulcrum to translate the energy of gravity into forward momentum, but as I was taught, it's not actively adding much, if anything. That's separate from the muscular energy needed to lift the supporting leg. If all of that translates to being "rooted in the feet" in your world, then yeah.

Calling Sun Lu Tang a dilletante may be overstating it, but the ones who were known as scholars were not known as fighters in any lineage I've been exposed to in any depth, despite what gets said publicly. Just because someone wrote some books doesn't mean they suck, but it also doesn't mean that they were great and give the best representation of the real practice. The takeaway as far as I'm concerned is that all the books, poetry, and theory in the world may be interesting, but they need to be weighed against real practices learned from a credible source-- whatever that means to the individual. I never said Sun or anyone else didn't write their own books. Not sure where you got that from...