Whole body power - Xing Yi

[Trip]

...as far as I know, Dempsey invented the thing, so if there's any disagreement he's right...

Got it
Understood

Thanks for your thoughts

[Trip]

https://youtu.be/NnG7PWGrx20?t=43

For those of you who might be interested
in seeing Dempsey perform his drop step in motion &
under pressure
the link above shows the fight that made the falling step famous

[GrahamB]

Whole body power is literally the reason why these arts got the name "internal". One part moves, all parts move, etc. The 6 harmonies.

RSF seems to be becoming increasingly pointless - it feels like nobody is ever on the same page.

Disagreement is what discourse is for, not agreement. Please show me where ‘whole body power’ is in the poems and songs of XingYiQuan. If it appears, it will be in the context of my previous post. WOOD -> EARTH, etc. logically, whole body power applies to every action, and to everything, everywhere, so why speak of it as something with which IMA should spend any words explaining?

Oh God, that's tedious.

You are arguing about semantics without any comprehension. If you're looking for the phrase "whole body power" translated into English from Chinese originals then I don't think you'll find it, but the whole of the XY classics is talking about finding a unification in the body, splitting it into 3 parts, co ordinating the parts so they move together, so you combine everything into one.

Here's one translation:

https://www.hsing-i.com/yueh-fueis-10-theses

If you can get away from WOOD in CAPITAL LETTERS and get the essence of what it is saying you'll find that it's exactly what Byron is talking about in the OP.

Call it "threading into one" if it makes you happier. A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.

[GrahamB]

Talking about "falling step"...


When the hands rise, the feet must fall. When the feet fall, the hands must rise. The heart must move first and the Yi must defeat the opponent. The body will attack the opponent, and the stepping must be better than the opponent’s. The front leg is like crossing and the rear leg is like sticking. The head must stick up and the chest must be exposed. The waist must grow and rise, and the Dan Tien must transport the Chi. From the top to the feet, the one Chi must thread through. Holding fear in the battle and the heart is cold, then surely not able to win. Unable to inspect the talking and view the color, surely not able to prevent the opponent’s intention and surely not able to move first. He who moves first is the master, and he who moves second is the follower. Be able to think only of advancing and do not keep thinking of retreating.

[Kelley Graham]

Whole body power is literally the reason why these arts got the name "internal". One part moves, all parts move, etc. The 6 harmonies.

RSF seems to be becoming increasingly pointless - it feels like nobody is ever on the same page.

Disagreement is what discourse is for, not agreement. Please show me where ‘whole body power’ is in the poems and songs of XingYiQuan. If it appears, it will be in the context of my previous post. WOOD -> EARTH, etc. logically, whole body power applies to every action, and to everything, everywhere, so why speak of it as something with which IMA should spend any words explaining?

Oh God, that's tedious.

You are arguing about semantics without any comprehension. If you're looking for the phrase "whole body power" translated into English from Chinese originals then I don't think you'll find it, but the whole of the XY classics is talking about finding a unification in the body, splitting it into 3 parts, co ordinating the parts so they move together, so you combine everything into one.

Here's one translation:

https://www.hsing-i.com/yueh-fueis-10-theses

If you can get away from WOOD in CAPITAL LETTERS and get the essence of what it is saying you'll find that it's exactly what Byron is talking about in the OP.

Call it "threading into one" if it makes you happier. A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.

Wtf man, I never went baby ad hominem on you or impugn your understanding. Tell you what I’ll ignore your MMA nonsense and you refrain from telling me what makes me happy. Ok? Ok. What’s tedious about this is a refusal to address the point that whole body power applies to everything you do with your body. It means nothing in the special case that is IMA.

[GrahamB]

Happy to take my "MMA nonsense" somewhere else - thanks for the impetus.

[Quigga]

Dunno, whole body power seems like a useful concept for explaining different things. Sure it's just a concept and as such prone to misunderstandings, illusions and imperfection, but so is everything else one uses to try to explain anything.

WBP is often used to try to convey what one feels during practice. 'Feeling connected' in various ways.

Since I always carry my body around me except for very special cases of projecting myself outside (out of body experiences, near death, astral travel - can't do that and no clue if I can learn it, smoked too much weed maybe), I obviously always have 'whole full body power'.

I personally would hate to see Graham go. He's a valuable member of our board and contributed lots of personal effort.

Every person less leads to slower discussion and less exchange on an already slow board for a very niche topic.

Let's just stay professional and not take stuff personally. I might not have to agree with everything other people say, but that doesn't mean I can't care for them.

As long as no one is actively trying to physically harm me, there's no need for me to get violent or destructive in whatever way.

That being said, this whole place obviously wouldn't run without you Kelley. You have a unique approach and lots of teaching experience. Your passion for the subject is huge. Thanks for providing this service to me and all other people on here.

I've literally started posting here when I was still a teenager, more than 10 years ago. I would hate to see this community break further apart.

[Kelley Graham]

Dunno, whole body power seems like a useful concept for explaining different things. Sure it's just a concept and as such prone to misunderstandings, illusions and imperfection, but so is everything else one uses to try to explain anything.

WBP is often used to try to convey what one feels during practice. 'Feeling connected' in various ways.

Since I always carry my body around me except for very special cases of projecting myself outside (out of body experiences, near death, astral travel - can't do that and no clue if I can learn it, smoked too much weed maybe), I obviously always have 'whole full body power'.

I personally would hate to see Graham go. He's a valuable member of our board and contributed lots of personal effort.

Every person less leads to slower discussion and less exchange on an already slow board for a very niche topic.

Let's just stay professional and not take stuff personally. I might not have to agree with everything other people say, but that doesn't mean I can't care for them.

As long as no one is actively trying to physically harm me, there's no need for me to get violent or destructive in whatever way.

That being said, this whole place obviously wouldn't run without you Kelley. You have a unique approach and lots of teaching experience. Your passion for the subject is huge. Thanks for providing this service to me and all other people on here.

I've literally started posting here when I was still a teenager, more than 10 years ago. I would hate to see this community break further apart.

I appreciate the thought. I pay for this place out of my own pocket every month. What I get doesn’t cover the bandwidth and processor fees. My direct cost is ok. The time I put in making sure things are ok I’m happy to contribute. I’m not asking for anything except understanding and tolerance for different points of view. I will not tolerate babyish ad hominem attacks and refusal to engage reasoned discussion directed my way. I have a very long list of things I’d do than be attacked over reasoned arguments. I’ve watched our discussions degrade here into ‘everything equals everything’. There are important language differences and resulting methodologies that lead to real concrete insights into one’s self cultivation and fighting prowess. These insights are specific to different arts and make life interesting. If we fail to define the boundaries of our respective arts, thousands of years of insight that is encoded into our practice is lost.

[robert]

I pay for this place out of my own pocket every month. What I get doesn’t cover the bandwidth and processor fees. My direct cost is ok. The time I put in making sure things are ok I’m happy to contribute.

I didn't know that. Thanks. I checked the top link and saw that you have a payment system setup. Do you have anything setup for contributions to support RSF?

[Kelley Graham]

I pay for this place out of my own pocket every month. What I get doesn’t cover the bandwidth and processor fees. My direct cost is ok. The time I put in making sure things are ok I’m happy to contribute.

I didn't know that. Thanks. I checked the top link and saw that you have a payment system setup. Do you have anything setup for contributions to support RSF?

No, I post here, so I don’t want to have a conflict of interest feeling about my opinions having more weight than others. Thanks for the thought. I charge the standard web fee. It covers about 1/3 of the direct costs. My time is worth way more and i don’t expect this non commercial ad free forum to pay for that. Ever.

[everything]

https://youtu.be/NnG7PWGrx20?t=43

For those of you who might be interested
in seeing Dempsey perform his drop step in motion &
under pressure
the link above shows the fight that made the falling step famous

nice clip.

obviously he never uses any "energy". always just "falls". /s

[GrahamB]

Really? Pulling the "I pay for this place" card is not very cool. I mean, paying for it is very cool - thank you - , but pulling the card out is not, and doesn't make you look very objective. Enjoy your fiefdom.

If anybody would like to hear my thoughts on Whole Body Power, I just did a blog post about it over on my blog where I will be enjoying my retirement and spending more time with my children, who I pay for.

[Kelley Graham]

Really? Pulling the "I pay for this place" card is not very cool. I mean, paying for it is very cool - thank you - , but pulling the card out is not, and doesn't make you look very objective. Enjoy your fiefdom.

If anybody would like to hear my thoughts on Whole Body Power, I just did a blog post about it over on my blog where I will be enjoying my retirement and spending more time with my children, who I pay for.

Couldn’t leave it alone, huh. I will make sure that I’m 100% objective. You are right, sharing the fact that I support the place is wrong and I shouldn’t post. Going silent.

[origami_itto]

He who moves first is the master, and he who moves second is the follower. Be able to think only of advancing and do not keep thinking of retreating.

This is a great example of the difference in the two arts. In Taijiquan we don't move until they move. Move second, arrive first.

What’s tedious about this is a refusal to address the point that whole body power applies to everything you do with your body.

I don't think that is really true, at least not in this context.
It is definitely possible to use less than all of your available mass or muscle to do something. "Whole body power" implies we're maximizing that mass or muscle involvement.

[Bao]

This is a great example of the difference in the two arts. In Taijiquan we don't move until they move. Move second, arrive first.

It is also said: "If my opponent moves slightly, then I moves first."

You need to follow, attach and adjust to him even at distance. Tai Chi is not passive, it's never passive as standing there and waiting for him. You should always follow and adapt, even at distance. And even if you on't show anything, your mind is still focused and active, following his smallest change.

"Relaxation is absolutely essential in push hands, but this relaxed formlessness must be filled with a lively awareness."
- Li Yaxuan