Whole body power - Xing Yi

[everything]

6 harmonies discussion from about 14 minutes. Relates to some of the posts in the Pao vs Beng thread.

the "connection" of the two hands when you pick up a long pole is kind of "obviously there" just by trying to use both to coordinate the staff/spear. for some reason, connecting two points might then make it easier to connect others. at least it seems that way.

off topic, doing beng this way makes me think of billiards/pool. the advice there seems to be to use only as much power as you need to have the aim correct so all the angles of everything go the correct way.

[origami_itto]

The problem I have with this idea is that the hands can't move except that they are manipulated through the arms and shoulders and waist. So the "hand leading" really means that the wrist, elbow, shoulder, and waist (maybe even legs) are all involved in actually making the hand move. If the hand is "leading" what is it really doing? Are we dividing the signal? Adding more distance to the trip? How is it faster?

Again, this clip may show how hand lead body.

I think it helps to be precise about what is happening though. The hand is not "leading" anything. The shoulder is moving the arm and the elbow is flexing the hand follows. The hand is always and forever a slave of the elbow and shoulder, waist, and legs. You can change the way you think about it, but that doesn't change what's happening.

[Quigga]

When I practice hand leads body, it's as if someone tied a rope to my wrist and pulls me in that direction. I draw a line, circle or trace various with my mind as if I was drawing with my mind / imagination in the air. If I make steps during this, it's like falling into that pulling sensation, as if I was forced to take steps in that direction, but it's relaxed since else the ox could pull my arm off.

When I practice body leads hand, I practice transferring the feeling from my feet to my hands and let it out there. I draw the heaviness of my feet and the ground all the way out into the air or into the point of contact. I make best use of all my body's miniscule movements to create the longest pathway inside of the physical me to create the longest whip I can. It's pulling the ground upwards but being relaxed. This involves moving the spine like a snake and sloshing inside like a water balloon.

When body and hand don't fight over who is leading - that's what I'm figuring out now.

[johnwang]

When I practice hand leads body, ... as if I was forced to take steps in that direction, but it's relaxed since else the ox could pull my arm off.

"As if I was forced to take steps in that direction". That's an excellent way to describe it. Only when you try to achieve "maximum speed", usually you don't get this kind of feeling.

[everything]

does this apply to "lead with foot"?

[johnwang]

does this apply to "lead with foot"?

All power come from the ground and up. When your mind is to move your foot, I believe you are more concern with power than speed.

[windwalker]

When body and hand don't fight over who is leading - that's what I'm figuring out now.

A Zen story describes three men observing a flag fluttering in the breeze:

One man says, “The wind is moving the flag.”

The second man says, “No, the flag is moving the wind.”

The third man says, “You are both wrong; it is your mind that is moving.”

三个人正在观察一面旗帜在微风中飘扬：一个人说，旗帜在移动。

第二个人说，风在动。

第三个人说，你们都错了，是你们的心在动。

talks a little about perception , whole body movement


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdPP0TmqKiU&t=206s

[everything]

i think if i want to kick quickly, non-telegraph type, maybe i try to "lead with foot" with no wind up.

if i want to kick with a (relatively) large amount of power, i actually have to "lead with hand" as part of my windup. so, if it's some kind of kickboxing setup, i guess you need various hand setups or feints so nobody realizes the foot is coming. but i don't know.

[Quigga]

Hey Windy, thanks for the useful hints.

[origami_itto]

does this apply to "lead with foot"?

All power come from the ground and up. When your mind is to move your foot, I believe you are more concern with power than speed.

I don't believe they are necessarily exclusive. You can be fast and arrive with your hand for fast power. Twist the dantien to move the bottom against the top and you're fast and powerful.

The detached hand i guess are less for when you're sacrificing power save more for when you don't want power.

But then the hands still just aim what the shoulder drives.

[johnwang]

But then the hands still just aim what the shoulder drives.

You may talk about straight line only. Try the following drills:

- Stand in horse stance.
- Raise your right hand next to your right ear with palm facing to your head.
- Strike your right hand to the left of your left knee with palm facing out.

- Right palm makes a big circle and strike horizontally across your opponent's eyes.

Does your shoulder drive your hand?

[origami_itto]

But then the hands still just aim what the shoulder drives.

You may talk about straight line only. Try the following drills:

- Stand in horse stance.
- Raise your right hand next to your right ear with palm facing to your head.
- Strike your right hand to the left of your left knee with palm facing out.

- Right palm makes a big circle and strike horizontally across your opponent's eyes.

Does your shoulder drive your hand?

Yes. The arm is attached to the torso via the shoulder. The shoulder muscles make the arm move which moves the hand.

You can throw it disconnectedly, quickly, with a fast twitch action, or throw it connected with rest of the body... Maybe also with a fast twitch?

[Kelley Graham]

Re: the OP video, arriving together, doesn’t mean leaving together. If we simplify, If you are manifesting wood energy, it is in response to something, wood controls earth. When he speaks about coordinating the limbs, he leaves out the most fundamental issue, why coordinate according to 6 harmonies? It’s not about hand and foot together, it’s about why hand and foot are together. As far as comments on BaGuaQuan being similar and an extension of XingYiQuan, my understanding differs greatly. BaGuaQuan is as different from XingYiQuan Shen Fa as is XingYiQuan shen fa is fromTaiJiQuan.

[GrahamB]

Connection between the two hands? That's not one of the 6H...

I also find XY and BG have fundamentally the same engine. TJQ is different.

Why use the 6H? So you can express whole body power. It's in the title of the video.

If I hug a tree am I "expressing wood energy"? Or is it more to do with what I get in the morning, when my qi is full

[Bao]

Agree with Mr Kelly Graham:

As far as comments on BaGuaQuan being similar and an extension of XingYiQuan, my understanding differs greatly.

Maybe the gent in the OP vid sees his own Bagua as an extension of his XY, he is free to do so. Though some people would regard it as an insult.

But speaking about XY or BGZ, you shouldn't really speak for all XY and BGZ, there are very different schools and philosophies and there is no general standard shared by all of them.

However, from my own personal experience studying 3 different Bagua styles, any traditional Bagua style is taught as a complete system and doesn't need any companion or help from any another art. They have all foundational exercise to build structure and rooting (stationary as well as dynamic). If you compare them, the variations I've studied have all very different engines, and don't really match with each other. No one of them is even close to the standard Hebei XY engine I've studied. The Yin Bagua school I briefly studied and gave up fast is incredibly complex. Every animal has a completely unique engine. Every animal is like studying a complete martial arts system. And, from what I know about the animals, still none of them are similar to the more common XY schools.

However, in general, XY and BG do share some similar basic exercises or jibengong, especially for developing vertical spinal power and movement. And often also some exercises similar to what is found as typical tongbei foundational practice. but those exercises can often be found in many other northern styles, as used by Tai Chi schools, Bajiquan etc.

BTW, I always enjoy watching Byron's videos.