Whole body power - Xing Yi

[origami_itto]

Very interesting discussion from Byron on whole body power from a XY perspective. Lots of good points here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMulYyqAFaQ



6 harmonies discussion from about 14 minutes. Relates to some of the posts in the Pao vs Beng thread.

So there's one thing I have trouble with.

Using the mass by falling.

I get it, the Dempsey drop step, etc. You definitely add some power if you can harness your falling weight.

However, the energy contained in your falling mass is limited in speed and force. It can't fall any faster than accelerating at 9.8 ms/s, or with any MORE energy than you put into moving it to begin with.

IN other words, you push off the ground with energy = X, your energy finishes, your body continues moving and falls with energy = X-Y, Y being the loss inherent in any conversion of energy from one state to another.

I haven't measured it and don't have the means to do so, but it would seem to me that the initial force of the step/jump(?) is faster and of a greater magnitude than what you get out of the fall.

Does that make sense or am I missing something?

[windwalker]

Very interesting discussion from Byron on whole body power from a XY perspective. Lots of good points here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMulYyqAFaQ

6 harmonies discussion from about 14 minutes. Relates to some of the posts in the Pao vs Beng thread.

Interesting
He mentions 3 external and 3 internal

Then goes on to change definitions for the 3 internal yi, qi, shen

to intent, focus, mentality,
Loses the original meanings...not different from any other physical combative practice...
What makes it IMA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb2wJSGi43M&t=101s

Why is the spoon talking about strength? Xingyi is vertical circle, Bagua is flat circle, Tai Chi is spiral

This teacher's explanations fit into the original concepts of 3 externals / 3 internals.

"Whole body power " alignments used make, maintain and describe a circle,

No redefining required.

[Bao]

There are different ways to use mass. Every martial art has their own way of using mass and no martial art is as static as implied. Also, the movement of mass is only as important as the speed. It's speed/velocity that creates power. Speed is MUCH more important than mass.

I am not good at explaining physics so I let someone else do it for me. Guess who?

How is speed more important than mass?

Speed is more important than mass for an object to generate power because power is the product of force and velocity, and increasing velocity will have a greater impact on power than increasing mass.

Power is a measure of the rate at which energy is being transferred or used. It is calculated by multiplying the force exerted on an object by the velocity at which the object is moving. This is represented by the equation:

Power = Force x Velocity

When an object is moving, it possesses kinetic energy, which is a measure of its energy of motion. The amount of kinetic energy an object possesses is directly proportional to the square of its velocity and the mass of the object. This is represented by the equation:

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 x Mass x Velocity^2

As we can see from this equation, velocity is squared, which means that as velocity increases, it has a much greater impact on the kinetic energy of an object than mass does. For example, if an object has a mass of 2 kg and is moving at a velocity of 10 m/s, it has 100 Joules of kinetic energy. If we increase the velocity of the object to 20 m/s, it now has 400 Joules of kinetic energy. This is a four-fold increase in kinetic energy, even though the mass of the object has not changed.

In the same example, if we keep the velocity of the object at 10 m/s and increase the mass of the object to 4 kg, the kinetic energy of the object increases to only 200 Joules, which is only a two-fold increase. So, we can see that increasing the velocity of an object will result in a much greater increase in kinetic energy and power than increasing its mass.

IMO, it's better to focus on "support strike with mass" than to "use mass to strike with". You want your fist to accelerate as fast as possible and reach maximum speed. Then when the fist lands on the target, the body must be in the right position to support the strike, or "fall" into the strike. This can be done in several ways. Transferring the mass forward with low speed will in itself add little to the potential striking power.

[Kelley Graham]

Whole body power isn’t a thing. Can we please drop it? Power is work output. Whole body work output doesn’t mean anything in the context of any IMA. This is how to discuss the internal transformational training of XingYiQuan.

WOOD breaks EARTH
EARTH absorbs WATER
WATER douses FIRE
FIRE melts METAL
METAL splits WOOD

[windwalker]

There are different ways to use mass. Every martial art has their own way of using mass and no martial art is as static as implied. Also, the movement of mass is only as important as the speed. It's speed/velocity that creates power. Speed is MUCH more important than mass.

I am not good at explaining physics so I let someone else do it for me. Guess who?

How is speed more important than mass?


IMO, it's better to focus on "support strike with mass" than to "use mass to strike with". You want your fist to accelerate as fast as possible and reach maximum speed. Then when the fist lands on the target, the body must be in the right position to support the strike, or "fall" into the strike. This can be done in several ways. Transferring the mass forward with low speed will in itself add little to the potential striking power.

Might help to explain
The basic idea being used in not correct for what it's trying to explain....


Momentum


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zBAlO3LzU8


About mass


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mCC-68LyZM

[origami_itto]

There are different ways to use mass. Every martial art has their own way of using mass and no martial art is as static as implied. Also, the movement of mass is only as important as the speed. It's speed/velocity that creates power. Speed is MUCH more important than mass.

I am not good at explaining physics so I let someone else do it for me. Guess who?

How is speed more important than mass?

Speed is more important than mass for an object to generate power because power is the product of force and velocity, and increasing velocity will have a greater impact on power than increasing mass.

Power is a measure of the rate at which energy is being transferred or used. It is calculated by multiplying the force exerted on an object by the velocity at which the object is moving. This is represented by the equation:

Power = Force x Velocity

When an object is moving, it possesses kinetic energy, which is a measure of its energy of motion. The amount of kinetic energy an object possesses is directly proportional to the square of its velocity and the mass of the object. This is represented by the equation:

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 x Mass x Velocity^2

As we can see from this equation, velocity is squared, which means that as velocity increases, it has a much greater impact on the kinetic energy of an object than mass does. For example, if an object has a mass of 2 kg and is moving at a velocity of 10 m/s, it has 100 Joules of kinetic energy. If we increase the velocity of the object to 20 m/s, it now has 400 Joules of kinetic energy. This is a four-fold increase in kinetic energy, even though the mass of the object has not changed.

In the same example, if we keep the velocity of the object at 10 m/s and increase the mass of the object to 4 kg, the kinetic energy of the object increases to only 200 Joules, which is only a two-fold increase. So, we can see that increasing the velocity of an object will result in a much greater increase in kinetic energy and power than increasing its mass.

IMO, it's better to focus on "support strike with mass" than to "use mass to strike with". You want your fist to accelerate as fast as possible and reach maximum speed. Then when the fist lands on the target, the body must be in the right position to support the strike, or "fall" into the strike. This can be done in several ways. Transferring the mass forward with low speed will in itself add little to the potential striking power.

Neither is "more important" and that equation is misleading at best

Power = Work / Time
Work = Force * Distance
Force = Mass * Acceleration

So when it comes to power as a factor of force, increasing either mass OR speed will increase work, even over a smaller distance.

So let's say you have a 10 lb weight and you lift it 6 feet, lifting a 20 lb weight 3 feet takes twice the force force and produce the same work, maybe the same power depending on how long it takes to do it.

So let's say your arm weighs 5 lbs and you have to move it 3 feet to hit something. Just punching. If your hand was 6 inches away and you recruited the whole body, you can generate more force accomplish more work and power.. well it really isn't that useful in this context, since we want the work to be done fast, even moving less and moving more slowly.

The hope is that through mechanical advantages and connectedness you can get the most work out of the system relative to what your muscles are putting into it.

[Bao]

No, it’s just physics. Speed is much more important than mass when it comes to power generation.

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 x Mass x Velocity^2

[origami_itto]

No, it’s just physics. Speed is much more important than mass when it comes to power generation.

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 x Mass x Velocity^2

From a physics perspective that statement
1) Makes absolutely no no sense. "Power generation" is not a thing. Power is a measurement of work over time.
2) Is patently incorrect. "Force" is the product of "speed" and mass, so increasing either will increase the amount of energy carried/transferred by a force. You're basically saying that in the equation 6 = 2 x 3 that the 2 is more important than the 3. Like... how?

But again that isn't really the measurement. Force is the measurement of CHANGE in speed, i.e. acceleration. What we really are concerned about is energy. How much energy will our body express and how do we generate the amount of force required to move it sufficiently to transmit that energy?

So then we have to look at two things.

1) The force needed to move our body

2) The force we exert on our opponent's body

A small force(1) can create a big force(2) if our movement can create a mechanical advantage, as force(1) will transfer energy to effect the creation of force(2)

As far as from a practical perspective, you can drop a 5 pound hammer from 5 feet or a 170 lb hammer from 5 feet, they will drop at the same rate, one will hurt significantly greater if it lands on your foot.

EDIT:
I need to pay more attention. The problem with browsing and working.

So the formula is
Energy = 1/2 ( mass X (velocity x velocity))

From the perspective of a human body, muscles only fire at the rate they fire. There is a hard limit on how fast muscles can make you move. Once you reach that, the only ways to increase energy output are to recruit more mass or increase mechanical advantage.

[wayne hansen]

So many Hsing I practitioners i see try to look hard in the arms and have poor movement in the feet
It is not about what the front leg does it is more about the rear leg
These two should be united by the waist
Thé body should be like a snake striking alive and tensile
Thé Tien Gan are the best way I have found to get that ability
Especially the moving set

[GrahamB]

Shen is not one of the six harmonies. Look it up...

"whole body power" doesn't exist? But "wood energy" does... ok....

[Bhassler]

Re: Drop step
In the classic drop step, no energy is added by the legs. It's just done by putting your weight on the front leg and then suddenly removing that support.

Re: Physics
Most people look at the wrong end of the equation. The relevant acceleration (whether in F=MA or KE=1/2MV^2) is the negative acceleration on impact. The more solid and efficient one's structure is at the moment of impact, the more energy will be transferred and, hence, more damage done. "Leaking" power is a much bigger issue than an inability to generate power.

[wayne hansen]

Moment is the important word
Most people use two moments

[origami_itto]

Moment is the important word
Most people use two moments

Time or Space?

[Kelley Graham]

Shen is not one of the six harmonies. Look it up...

"whole body power" doesn't exist? But "wood energy" does... ok....

Didn’t say that, said it doesn’t apply to IMA. Sheesh.

[Bao]

No, it’s just physics. Speed is much more important than mass when it comes to power generation.

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 x Mass x Velocity^2

From a physics perspective that statement
1) Makes absolutely no no sense. "Power generation" is not a thing. Power is a measurement of work over time.
2) Is patently incorrect. "Force" is the product of "speed" and mass, so increasing either will increase the amount of energy carried/transferred by a force. You're basically saying that in the equation 6 = 2 x 3 that the 2 is more important than the 3. Like... how?

---

Kinetic Energy = 1/2 x Mass x Velocity^2

Again, ^2 means that velocity is squared, which means that as velocity increases, it has a much greater impact on the kinetic energy of an object than mass does. This means that if you triple or quadruple the speed of a moving object, the power of a collision will have a much greater effect than if you triple or quadruple the mass.

Kinetic energy means movement and the equation is about movement. Comparing with an equation as 6 = 2 x 3 is just silly and means that you for some reason can't understand, don't want to understand, or that you are trolling.

In the equation 6 = 2 x 3, 2 is NOT more important than the 3. But if change the equation from 2 x 3 to 4 x 12, then the 3 has changed more than the 2. 4 is the double amount of 2. 12 is 4 times the amount of 3. 4 x 12 is 48. So changing 3 to 12 increases the total sum more than changing 2 to 4.

I sincerely don't understand why you have a problem with a simple equation that proves that the increase of velocity will have a more impact on increasing strength than the increase of mass. Maybe you complicate things too much.

From the perspective of a human body, muscles only fire at the rate they fire. There is a hard limit on how fast muscles can make you move. Once you reach that, the only ways to increase energy output are to recruit more mass or increase mechanical advantage.

Well, there's a limit to how much mass you can put on your body.
But most people can increase the speed of their movements better and faster than they can put on weight or increase the size of their muscles.

Re: Physics
Most people look at the wrong end of the equation. The relevant acceleration (whether in F=MA or KE=1/2MV^2) is the negative acceleration on impact. The more solid and efficient one's structure is at the moment of impact, the more energy will be transferred and, hence, more damage done. "Leaking" power is a much bigger issue than an inability to generate power.

Exactly!

That is why I said that I rather speak about supporting a striking fist with mass, than moving mass to strike with.

The acceleration/speed/velocity is the first thing that is important.
Your structure/balance/support when your fist lands on the target.

It's harder to train to increase mass than to practice speed. Regardless what method you prefer, the body must give the fist a firm support. Even if you walk/run or fall into the punch, angles and timing must be correct to give the punch maximum support.