historical accounts

[Bao]

Everything you hear or read should be taken with a grain of salt. The very most of the stories about the "old masters" are "wild stories" with very little reality behind them. They are invented to make the people look good, romanticize them or illustrate something important about their arts. Today, there is still a strict hierarchy in China, and it was much worse one or two hundred years ago. What those "masters" did for a living was often considered as "low class" jobs, so especially upper class people didn't want to talk about those things and rather made up stories. So none of what is written should be taken seriously, we know very little "facts". Any interpretation is as good as anyone else's. However, some things makes sense and some things don't. If you know very little about Chinese history and culture, there is no real way to understand what makes sense. Personally, I can only say that I understand some of it, I am not an expert. And obviously, any person who knows more about Chinese history and culture than me could probably make out much more of what makes sense and not.

[Shinobi]

Apparently Luchan looked a lot like Banhou and most stories I've seen talk about both men being quite slight and slender and sometimes underestimated for this reason.

[Doc Stier]

Apparently Luchan looked a lot like Banhou and most stories I've seen talk about both men being quite slight and slender and sometimes underestimated for this reason.

Lu-Chan was Ban-Hou's father, so it's more accurate to say that the son looked like his father. Their small, slender physical stature was one of the primary reasons why they preferred a relaxed and flexible 'soft style' boxing method, which allowed them to optimize their natural speed and agility in order to avoid direct contests of size and strength with larger opponents defensively, while simultaneously maximizing their unified internal and external power offensively. I suspect that they also enjoyed being underestimated due to their physical stature, which no doubt proved to be a catastrophic error for many opponents.

[Giles]

Yin Fu, the famous baguazhang man and (sub)style founder, was apparently nicknamed "Thin Yin". I'm not a bagua expert in the least, but there seem to be enough reports of this to make it credible. And apparently he was also a top Imperial bodyguard: you all know the story, Empress Dowager and so on. Hence I don't think the argument "bodyguards must have been big and muscled" necessarily holds water.
On the other hand, sure, mass and muscle are absolutely no barrier to internal strength and softness. It's just that having these 'useful' attributes often makes it very hard to give up relying on them during the long training process. People who are less large and strong and/or tend to the thin side might realize more quickly that good technique and - if it's available - internal training probably represent their only hope.
I also speak from personal experience.

[wayne hansen]

A sharp sword makes a lightweight into a heavyweight

[Bob]

There are pictures of some of these masters - in his youth, Yang Chengfu was relatively slim - in old issue of the Journal of Asian Martial Arts - Yin Fu photo also around

[Shinobi]

Apparently Luchan looked a lot like Banhou and most stories I've seen talk about both men being quite slight and slender and sometimes underestimated for this reason.

Lu-Chan was Ban-Hou's father, so it's more accurate to say that the son looked like his father. Their small, slender physical stature was one of the primary reasons why they preferred a relaxed and flexible 'soft style' boxing method, which allowed them to optimize their natural speed and agility in order to avoid direct contests of size and strength with larger opponents defensively, while simultaneously maximizing their unified internal and external power offensively. I suspect that they also enjoyed being underestimated due to their physical stature, which no doubt proved to be a catastrophic error for many opponents.

Of course - I should've said that Banhou resembled Luchan or at least that they resembled each other! Despite this, it was Shaohou's photo they used to create Luchan's image because he looks more serene than Banhou. To me, it's the opposite - Banhou is smiling and looks serene; Shaohou looks as though he's about 5 seconds away from killing the cameraman!!

[MiaoZhen]

Historically speaking, the truth is we know next to nothing about Yang Luchan that is really historically verifiable. There is also only scant contemporaneous accounts of him at all (just one really that's very short). We also have no historical proof he ever worked for the Imperial family (don't bother trying to contradict this unless you have written evidence from the Qing court that proved his employment - because it doesn't exist). All of the stories though are really interesting and tell us more about what we all want Taiji to be, or what role it has in modern society. Douglas Wile wrote an excellent article on Yang Luchan in the current issue of the journal Martial Arts Studies titled The Many Lives of Yang Luchan: Mythopoesis, Media, and the Martial Imagination. Everyone interested in Taijiquan should read the article.

https://mas.cardiffuniversitypress.org/ ... 73/mas.167

[Urs Krebs]

Just BS. Just reading a bit about the little traces of real history, we know the servant myth doesn't make sense. Yang Luchan had children, how could he have children if he lived as a servant? And he certainly did not spend all his time in the village.

So the servant stuff is a just myth, something from a fiction novel. The Chen guys worked as hired body guards and security personnel. As Yang Luchan was a big fellow and already a skilled martial artist, they hired him to follow them on missions. Yang learned the Chen family art while accompanying them on missions.

Your argument about the children is BS as well. According to the Yang family (Yang Zhenduo/Yang Jun on their website) Yang Luchan learned Taijiquan from the Chen family in the 1820ies for about 10 years. Yang Banhou was born in 1837 and Yang Jianhou was born in 1842. Taking that in consideration he of course could have lived as a servant and then return back to his hometown and start a family. It could have been like that or not, i wasn't there and i didn't see it as none of us did. But as you said he worked as a bodyguard. Sources please.

[everything]

afaik (which is nothing, but i know there are history buffs here) there were rigorous martial arts and physical tests to pass to join the Imperial Guard. if so, it seems completely credible there are actually some good fighters in that bunch. if Yang really had any "tests" with some top people from those circles, and people were genuinely impressed or more than that, then that seems quite impressive. of course there can be wild stories, too.

If we take the Michael Jordans, LeBron James, Muhammad Alis, Mike Tysons, Fedors, Tiger Woods, Rafael Nadals, Lionel Messis of today - god-gifted, UNBELIEVABLE athletes and put them in those settings, those are the types of unbelievable talents that would rise to the top in martial arts rather than boxing, basketball, etc. surely some people on that kind of talent level were in that environment. to dismiss all of the stories as "wild" seems crazy to me. there is no doubt some truth that there were some top martial artists. and there is no doubt that bigger names would emerge. every top footballer is astounded by Messi. we are lucky to have so much video evidence why. if every top fighter was astounded by a Yang (or whomever was the equivalent of a Messi, Lebron, etc.), there is something there. this seems like common fucking sense. it also seems common sense and statistically expected that none of their offspring would attain their father's level (but might still be super impressive).

[yeniseri]

afaik (which is nothing, but i know there are history buffs here) there were rigorous martial arts and physical tests to pass to join the Imperial Guard. if so, it seems completely credible there are actually some good fighters in that bunch. if Yang really had any "tests" with some top people from those circles, and people were genuinely impressed or more than that, then that seems quite impressive. of course there can be wild stories, too.

If we take the Michael Jordans, LeBron James, Muhammad Alis, Mike Tysons, Fedors, Tiger Woods, Rafael Nadals, Lionel Messis of today - god-gifted, UNBELIEVABLE athletes and put them in those settings, those are the types of unbelievable talents that would rise to the top in martial arts rather than boxing, basketball, etc. surely some people on that kind of talent level were in that environment. to dismiss all of the stories as "wild" seems crazy to me. there is no doubt some truth that there were some top martial artists. and there is no doubt that bigger names would emerge. every top footballer is astounded by Messi. we are lucky to have so much video evidence why. if every top fighter was astounded by a Yang (or whomever was the equivalent of a Messi, Lebron, etc.), there is something there. this seems like common fucking sense. it also seems common sense and statistically expected that none of their offspring would attain their father's level (but might still be super impressive).

Using your reference, everything falls into place. When Jordan, Messi et al are executing their 'moves' it seems like they have the appearance and perception of defying the laws of physics through their skill, experience and ability to 'walk through' the offense of their opponents. I recall a few instances of where a player was able to get under the defenses of his opponent while snatching the ball from the opponent and then at the same time feint a move and then make a basket.

[everything]

for some reason, this post got removed, but the video is still there (compilation of MJ doing just ball fakes. so ridiculously simple, but everyone is "led into emptiness" (and of course he can do the "fajin" follow-up pass or basket) ).
https://www.reddit.com/r/OldSchoolCool/ ... look_back/

I think we have to remember people like YLC, Musashi, etc. were the 1% of the 1% like these "freak athletes" of our time. You take someone with that level of talent, they train MA from childhood, qigong, etc., every teacher recognizes "holy shit this kid is fucking unbelievable" and tries to send him to a better teacher ... that's why there are exaggerations (although it's really, really, really difficult to over-hype Messi; most coaches wouldn't really claim to have "taught" him - they tried to pass him onto the best as fast as possible as they honestly were not qualified to tell him anything else; now at age 35 he still blows every expert away). Other "pro fighters" would've been blown away by a Yang or a Musashi (who would've basically literally killed you, so how do we know?). Out of all the pros, there are still 1-2 that blow them all away. That's not any exaggeration. It's just the way it all works in sports today. Surely a bit of that happened in those IMA and MA circles. It's impossible it didn't happen.

[everything]

but then further down the line, you get their descendents and it's statistically impossible they are the same freak level of ability and motivation and so on. it's just not possible biologically or statistically that our kids have the exact same genetic material, interests, abilities, motivations.

if you then have a normal person with no talent, or even if you have a Messi, but Messi plays basketball ... that person cannot possibly become Michael Jordan. So then you say "Messi style basketball" sucks or "basketball sucks". That's absurd. Nothing to do with that sport or style being bad. You don't have the input of a Messi or Jordan into X, you don't get a genius out of X. Simple. Bunch of no-talent hippies play taijiquan? Nobody is coming out of there and beating Fedor. Doesn't mean anything except those hippies could never succeed in sports or MA at an elite level. Nothing wrong with that at all. Just the way it is. We should all still play basketball or MA or whatever.

[everything]

may as well continue while i'm on a roll.

OTOH, somebody actually taught Jordan, Messi, etc. something. Who was it? Not really sure. It could have been a person named "Chen" or whatever. It doesn't matter at all, really. Because Jordan and Messi far far far exceeded that person or people's level. You cannot "teach" music to Mozart or Lennon and McCartney. It doesn't happen. You just let the Universe flow through them and express genius and try to comprehend it. But ordinary humans cannot even comprehend trying to play basketball with an NBA player, let alone a Jordan or a LeBron. We really would not be able to comprehend it. So many commentators including ex-ballers are just astounded by Messi. So the Yang Chen thing - makes absolutely zero sense to me (aside from marketing and lineage stuff) if YLC was really the top of the top. It's just not a thing we should talk about. AT ALL. We talk about Jordan and we talk about Messi. Period. It should be clear why. If anything, instead of exaggerating Messi, we should really talk about how these people's level is incomprehensible. We should probably talk about how there's no reasonable way we can probably contemplate how good a Yang really was. Why people said the things they said. The only possible way we can start to understand is by realizing we cannot comprehend Messi or Jordan or even Mike Tyson. I think for some reason on the rsf and the internet, ordinary humans talk as if we really understand. I think we have absolutely zero clue how good Yang must've been. If he's anywhere close to these athletes at the top, it would of course be incomprehensible when he throws you. You just wouldn't get it even though you are also a "top pro". Even if you are a rock star, you don't understand Lennon & McCartney. That is the level we have to assume and then we try to talk from there. But that's impossible. We don't say "oh I play some basketball or some music and acquired a lot of skill; let me try to explain genius." It will fall short. When some lineage descendent of YLC teaches you something and you are impressed, you kind of have to assume it's like Jordan's great grandchild taught you something about basketball, but it's not even close to the real genius level.

[wayne hansen]

At this point this thread conflates with the CMC pushing thread