Constant Pressure, Free Movement

[origami_itto]

So there's a thing we do that is never really spoken of explicitly that I'm aware of and that I am curious what you think of.

"One part moves, all parts move" or something like that, right? Except it isn't.

I mean, if you step back far enough you are never at rest. You are always moving because you are stuck to the skin of a big spinning rock.

Miles above us are satellites that are moving exactly the same speed so that they appear to be stationary from our perspective. There is stillness in that movement, as the two bodies, ourselves and the satellites do not move in relation to each other, but there is movement, obviously, relative to the rest of the universe. Within the bodies themselves, automatic processes move continuously. The heart beats, the blood moves, the lungs expand and contract, the ENS sends pulses to move food through the intestines.

The point being stillness and motion are relative, and we're instructed to seek the stillness in movement and the motion in the stillness, but what does it even mean?

So in some forms (sequence of movements such as push, press, withdraw and push, etc) the hand will stay in the same point in space relative to the earth, while the rest of the player's body moves. It always seems to me a little bit like a mime pretending their hat is anchored in space and they just can't move it.

But even though the hand is still relative to the earth, it's connected to what's moving, so it is moving in relation to the rest of the body and the joint of the wrist has to be open and free to allow the arm to move.

Intellectualization, sure, but this is the useful bit.

If you put that still point in space up against another object, then it is possible to maintain a constant pressure between your hand and that object as the rest of your body moves in space around it.

The martial application should be immediately obvious.

If we are in contact with an opponent who wants to interpret our movements and counter or prevent them, then this does two things.
1) Allows us to reposition our bodies to obtain a more favorable position for applying force to our opponent's vulnerabilities. - Position before submission, as they say.
2) Impairs our opponent's ability to gather information about those movements

Maintaining "4oz of pressure" during push hands drills is a way to work on this idea, being aware of and seeking to maintain that consistent pressure while moving not only your body, but the point of contact itself.

I don't know what it's called, but you can combine it with listening and the storing-moving-releasing skills and you've got a good bit of taijiquan in my humble opinion.

If you've got a heavy bag you can play with this solo, push it just enough to get the bag off center slightly, just the lightest possible pressure against the back of your hand. Now move the rest of your body around that point freely, maybe even switch hands without changing the pressure. Do it all without making the bag move. Start working on increasing how far out you can push the bag off the centerline while maintaining the other qualities.

I also play with it on my refrigerator water dispenser. Put the coffee pot against the lever and while it's filling up, move around the point in space while maintaining consistent pressure. An inflatable ball or balloon against a wall. A weighted medicine ball or tai chi sphere. There are many ways to examine this concept and its usefulness.

[windwalker]

Interesting....

What do you feeling you'er joining with, and following


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vmsaQNWD54

[origami_itto]

Energy

[marvin8]

So there's a thing we do that is never really spoken of explicitly that I'm aware of and that I am curious what you think of....

So in some forms (sequence of movements such as push, press, withdraw and push, etc) the hand will stay in the same point in space relative to the earth, while the rest of the player's body moves. It always seems to me a little bit like a mime pretending their hat is anchored in space and they just can't move it....

I touched on this with a couple examples, Cejudo (not taiji) and ZMQ. Cejudo keeps his head, torso and front leg still, then moves his back leg. ZMQ bends his arm, while keeping his elbow in place.

... Cejudo's follow step (not taiji) is used for stability, distance deception (yin), entering and explosive power. Ms Dong is pushing, then follow stepping. Cejudo is feinting to hide his follow step, luring a reaction from the opponent, intercepting, then stepping in with a takedown.

At 3:06, ZMQ:

1. presses (ji) causing Gibbs to roll back (lu) 2. as Gibbs shifts his weight to the front foot and attacks, ZMQ adheres by bending his arm 3. while bending his arm, ZMQ slightly rolls back, then shifts his weight to the front foot (shortens lu) and issues push with forearm (ward off/Ti Fang RSF thread), attached->resistance->withdraw->acceleration (li?).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSYPOhSgiis&t=3m6s

Similar mechanics and timing. Wilder in post fight interview, "I was making him reach, trying to keep my distance. I had to circle. I set him up, allowed him to reach then. when he reached, I attacked. "

In Wilder vs Helenius, Wilder:

1. steps back luring Helenius to follow 2. as Helenius shifts his weight to the front foot and punches, Wilder rolls back, then shifts his weight to the front foot and issues short right hand KOing Helenius:

Maintaining "4oz of pressure" during push hands drills is a way to work on this idea, being aware of and seeking to maintain that consistent pressure while moving not only your body, but the point of contact itself.

I don't know what it's called, but you can combine it with listening and the storing-moving-releasing skills and you've got a good bit of taijiquan in my humble opinion.

This may be a difference between taiji and high-level professional fighting—controlling at a contact point versus a point of engagement without contact. Professional fighters (e.g., Wilder above) control their opponent with and without contact points.

Excerpt from "Flowing Deep and Wide:"

Points of Engagement

... The pieces meet in the middle of the board, and the first to make a move that gives ground to the enemy is often the player who loses the game. As the checkers, only able to move forward, crowd toward the center line they eventually run out of safe spaces, and must step into a square threatened by the enemy....

Deep Analysis:

When there is only one active point of engagement on the board, or only one viable move for a player after a position is reached, then it's often beneficial to search for the reply that continues to force only one or two possible moves from them on the next turn. This way, the one who initiates the sequence of moves can expect to accurately predict which moves will be best. If or when an opponent deviates from what seems to be the best possible line of moves, then they can usually be punished.

[origami_itto]

Motion and stillness can get a bit overwhelming when you start to break it down.

It only exists relative to something. The earth, our opponent, our own bodies.

Engagement takes many forms and I believe it's a mistake to say taijiquan doesn't contain something. The 13 postures operate across all the layers and perspectives of human existence.

At it's most basic level taijiquan can be said to use the honeypot gambit for enticing the opponent into poor decisions, but we also split, gaze left, look right,, etc.

There are various means and methods for influencing others baked into the art, offensively, defensively, and cooperatively. Of course, conversely it should also be teaching us how to resist others using the same or similar methods.

[marvin8]

Motion and stillness can get a bit overwhelming when you start to break it down.

It only exists relative to something. The earth, our opponent, our own bodies.

Not sure what you're saying. I thought stillness in movement, meant meditation in movement, calmness. "One part moves, all parts move" I believe refers to whole body movement, whether sequential or not. Perpetual motion may refer to the form always flowing, never stuck in one position.

Engagement takes many forms and I believe it's a mistake to say taijiquan doesn't contain something. The 13 postures operate across all the layers and perspectives of human existence.

At it's most basic level taijiquan can be said to use the honeypot gambit for enticing the opponent into poor decisions, but we also split, gaze left, look right,, etc.

There are various means and methods for influencing others baked into the art, offensively, defensively, and cooperatively. Of course, conversely it should also be teaching us how to resist others using the same or similar methods.

Then, I misunderstood you. My reply was in relation to what I thought you were saying. Yeah, I posted Mizner demo sparring. However, I didn't necessarily see him using yin, ting, na, hua before making contact to the extent combat sports fighters do.

[origami_itto]

I'm talking about a particular concept. Freedom of movement while applying constant pressure. If we want to abstract it out into contactless scenarios sure why but but I think wrapping our head around the contact based application of the principle is task enough for the immediate discussion.

I really don't care much about what Adam Mizner does or doesn't do. I was excited to find his material six or seven years ago but I have found a more useful source of instruction since then.

I don't take issue with you trying to map taijiquan concepts onto MMA but I think you're stretching the bounds of the particular terms you're using to describe them. It might be more useful to get a little closer to the actual meanings of the jargon.

[origami_itto]

So in this vein.

We're doing this when we suspend the head. We're applying constant force upwards to keep upright while opening and loosening all of the joints between our skull and feet.

[marvin8]

I'm talking about a particular concept. Freedom of movement while applying constant pressure. If we want to abstract it out into contactless scenarios sure why but but I think wrapping our head around the contact based application of the principle is task enough for the immediate discussion.

That's what I thought you were talking about. I believe push/pull is a better description than constant pressure. There are times when you press, other times when you lead the opponent into emptiness.

I don't take issue with you trying to map taijiquan concepts onto MMA but I think you're stretching the bounds of the particular terms you're using to describe them. It might be more useful to get a little closer to the actual meanings of the jargon.

The words can be used generally in the context of fighting, not restricted to taiji. The objectives are the same. The skills and methods emphasized to accomplish them may differ (e.g., contact vs without contact).

[origami_itto]

I'm talking about a particular concept. Freedom of movement while applying constant pressure. If we want to abstract it out into contactless scenarios sure why but but I think wrapping our head around the contact based application of the principle is task enough for the immediate discussion.

That's what I thought you were talking about. I believe push/pull is a better description than constant pressure. There are times when you press, other times when you lead the opponent into emptiness..

Pushing and pulling are different things what I'm talking about is getting to a place where you can pull or push more effectively without indicating you are doing that.
There's a wrestling drill where you go from a clinch to a takedown by loosening up and flowing around your opponents arms to get to their body.
It works because you're still giving the same pressure,or even pulling back a little. While moving in.
Constant pressure doesn't mean a lot of pressure. Just consistent pressure.

Consider this idea along with the stories of the thread test.

[marvin8]

I'm talking about a particular concept. Freedom of movement while applying constant pressure. If we want to abstract it out into contactless scenarios sure why but but I think wrapping our head around the contact based application of the principle is task enough for the immediate discussion.

That's what I thought you were talking about. I believe push/pull is a better description than constant pressure. There are times when you press, other times when you lead the opponent into emptiness..

Pushing and pulling are different things what I'm talking about is getting to a place where you can pull or push more effectively without indicating you are doing that.
There's a wrestling drill where you go from a clinch to a takedown by loosening up and flowing around your opponents arms to get to their body.
It works because you're still giving the same pressure,or even pulling back a little. While moving in.
Constant pressure doesn't mean a lot of pressure. Just consistent pressure.

Consider this idea along with the stories of the thread test.

Well, here is shuai chiao's front cut (or judo's osoto gari or wrestling's outside trip), which some say is in taiji. I can't find a taiji person executing it in a high-level fight.

At Alex Volkanovski vs Korean Zombie, Alex (UFC Featherweight Champion) drills and executes:

1. Starting from outside fighting range, Alex steps right leading Zombie (in orthodox stance) to step left 2. Alex raises lead hand (yin) 3. listens (ting) for Zombie to shift his weight to the back foot (double weight) 4. Alex controls Zombie's rear arm and center with his lead hand (na, hua) 5. then hop steps and issues (fa) left front cut/osoto gari:

[origami_itto]

Consider this idea along with the stories of the thread test.

Well, here is shuai chiao's front cut (or judo's osoto gari or wrestling's outside trip), which some say is in taiji. I can't find a taiji person executing it in a high-level fight.

At Alex Volkanovski vs Korean Zombie, Alex (UFC Featherweight Champion) drills and executes:

1. Starting from outside fighting range, Alex steps right leading Zombie (in orthodox stance) to step left 2. Alex raises lead hand (yin) 3. listens (ting) for Zombie to shift his weight to the back foot (double weight) 4. Alex controls Zombie's rear arm and center with his lead hand (na, hua) 5. then hop steps and issues (fa) left front cut/osoto gari:

That's very similar to something I do that does make use of this idea. As I throw my hand at their face like a punch I'm stepping behind into a hip throw setup, so when the punch is easily blocked I just drape across them and execute it.

If you want to do your comparison, yes this instance is keeping psychological pressure, they have to block the the punch or eat it or counterpunch,in order to hide the set up positioning.

Specifically I would call it a mental split, or look right.

[wayne hansen]

This is just bend back from san shou done poorly

[everything]

Energy

or maybe intent

[origami_itto]

Energy

or maybe intent

Intent is just a type of energy