Constant Pressure, Free Movement

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Constant Pressure, Free Movement

Postby origami_itto on Fri Feb 17, 2023 12:02 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I remember a few decades back my teacher was leaving to live on his farm
A well known teacher came around for a final push
My teacher had always gone easy on him but this time he threw him all over the place
When it was over he asked how come he could do it on that day
My teacher said nothing had changed he just filled up each gap
The teacher asked what technique did you use
My teacher said to me
With all his training he still thinks it’s still about technique
CMC is not about technique he’s all about feeling a gap and filling it up

That's really the thing of it. I don't know where technique becomes skill or if it matters. Getting side tracked playing word games.

That's the purpose. Consistent pressure and readiness. Smooth energy as some have written. When the opponent is broken and jagged, we are smooth and our energy fills the gaps and smothers their intention. Covers their qi?
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5031
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Constant Pressure, Free Movement

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Feb 17, 2023 12:05 pm

Push and pull are such hamfisted terms for what we do in tai chi
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5660
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Constant Pressure, Free Movement

Postby Quigga on Fri Feb 17, 2023 12:54 pm

Origami,

Imo it's what the story of the tea-master and swordmanship-apprentice is about.

I bet you know what I'm talking about, but to quickly recap: the TM was challenged to a duel by a rowdy SMA. In his despair, he asked a local sword master what to do. The SM asked him to show how he practiced his tea ceremony. After appreciating the display of cultivation the TM had achieved in this setting, the SM said: draw your sword, get into the same state of mind as if brewing tea, then just stand there. A bit perplexed, the TM agreed.

At the time of the duel the TM did as instructed. The SMA couldn't sense any gap or wavering in the TM presence. No moves were made and yet all was said. The SMA admitted defeat in the face of what he witnessed. No blood was shed.

Imo Tai Chi isn't about body posture, strategy or techniques at all. It's a very direct form of cultivation. That's why it's so challenging.

I still like what Ryabko and Vasiliev are doing. It comes closer to Tai Chi than many other styles attempt. Because they keep it simple and focus on the development of qualities instead of rambling endlessly about minutia that one can't control anyway in the heat of battle.

That's why the beginning Wuji posture is said to be the most important one from which all others arise. You literally develop your presence, your being, how you interact with yourself and the world around you.

Now I'm not negating that the body conditioning is cruel and demanding to the point of insanity. Obviously if you wreck your joints, get psychosis or become impotent, get a bladder disease, get in trouble with your community, you're doing it wrong.

I went to the gym today. First time in a long while. Felt really great. Curious if it's detrimental or not.
Quigga

 

Re: Constant Pressure, Free Movement

Postby marvin8 on Fri Feb 17, 2023 1:10 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Push and pull are such hamfisted terms for what we do in tai chi

Right. Then, "constant pressure" is a hamfisted term too. Push (forward) and pull (backward) were used in the context of "constant pressure," not tai chi itself. Tai chi includes leading, following, intercepting, pushing, etc., not just "following" or “constant pressure.”
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Constant Pressure, Free Movement

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Feb 17, 2023 1:45 pm

Systema / tai chi ? Can’t see it
Wu chi is the posture we try to get back to
It is the shift to the left and the yielding of the right shoulder after Wu Chi that is the first part of tai chi along with the listening of the right hand
Step out with the left foot and steal his space doing with him as you will
He is your dog take him home
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5660
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Constant Pressure, Free Movement

Postby marvin8 on Fri Feb 17, 2023 2:14 pm

origami_itto wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I remember a few decades back my teacher was leaving to live on his farm
A well known teacher came around for a final push
My teacher had always gone easy on him but this time he threw him all over the place
When it was over he asked how come he could do it on that day
My teacher said nothing had changed he just filled up each gap
The teacher asked what technique did you use
My teacher said to me
With all his training he still thinks it’s still about technique
CMC is not about technique he’s all about feeling a gap and filling it up

That's really the thing of it. I don't know where technique becomes skill or if it matters. Getting side tracked playing word games.

That's the purpose. Consistent pressure and readiness. Smooth energy as some have written. When the opponent is broken and jagged, we are smooth and our energy fills the gaps and smothers their intention. Covers their qi?

For clarity, in your clips ZMQ does, "attached->resistance->withdraw (pull)->acceleration (push)." ZMQ does not: "If they move forward, you move forward, if they move backward, you move backward." ZMQ does: If they move forward (push), you move backward (pull), if they move backward (pull), you move forward (push).

marvin8 wrote:At 3:06, ZMQ:

1. presses (ji) causing Gibbs to roll back (lu) 2. as Gibbs shifts his weight to the front foot and attacks, ZMQ adheres by bending his arm 3. while bending his arm, ZMQ slightly rolls back, then shifts his weight to the front foot (shortens lu) and issues push with forearm (ward off/Ti Fang RSF thread), attached->resistance->withdraw->acceleration (li?).

Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSYPOhSgiis&t=3m6s

origami_itto wrote:Okay but I am not referring to pushing or pulling. I'm talking about neutral contact. Establishing an amount of pressure and then not changing that pressure. Pushing and pulling are changing the amount and/or direction of pressure you are applying.

If they move forward, you move forward, if they move backward, you move backward. The thread test is an example of this, following the other's movement so closely there isn't enough pressure to snap it, or so little it sags.
Last edited by marvin8 on Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm


Re: Constant Pressure, Free Movement

Postby origami_itto on Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:34 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Push and pull are such hamfisted terms for what we do in tai chi

Words are pretty worthless. Good signposts but the map is not the territory
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5031
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Constant Pressure, Free Movement

Postby marvin8 on Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:14 pm

origami_itto wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Push and pull are such hamfisted terms for what we do in tai chi

Words are pretty worthless. Good signposts but the map is not the territory

You don't need to use words. You can test the territory (your words) with a partner:

1. They move forward, you move forward.
2. They move backward, you move backward.

Spoiler alert: The pressure/distance will change.

1. They move forward (push), you move backward (pull).
2. They move backward (pull), you move forward (push).

Spoiler alert: The pressure/distance will not change. Pressure will remain constant.

origami_itto wrote:Okay but I am not referring to pushing or pulling. I'm talking about neutral contact. Establishing an amount of pressure and then not changing that pressure. Pushing and pulling are changing the amount and/or direction of pressure you are applying.

If they move forward, you move forward, if they move backward, you move backward. The thread test is an example of this, following the other's movement so closely there isn't enough pressure to snap it, or so little it sags.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Constant Pressure, Free Movement

Postby origami_itto on Sat Feb 18, 2023 4:29 am

marvin8 wrote:
origami_itto wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Push and pull are such hamfisted terms for what we do in tai chi

Words are pretty worthless. Good signposts but the map is not the territory

You don't need to use words. You can test the territory (your words) with a partner:

1. They move forward, you move forward.
2. They move backward, you move backward.

Spoiler alert: The pressure/distance will change.

1. They move forward (push), you move backward (pull).
2. They move backward (pull), you move forward (push).

Spoiler alert: The pressure/distance will not change. Pressure will remain constant.

origami_itto wrote:Okay but I am not referring to pushing or pulling. I'm talking about neutral contact. Establishing an amount of pressure and then not changing that pressure. Pushing and pulling are changing the amount and/or direction of pressure you are applying.

If they move forward, you move forward, if they move backward, you move backward. The thread test is an example of this, following the other's movement so closely there isn't enough pressure to snap it, or so little it sags.

Thank you. That is very informative.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5031
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Constant Pressure, Free Movement

Postby marvin8 on Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:14 am

origami_itto wrote:If you put that still point in space up against another object, then it is possible to maintain a constant pressure between your hand and that object as the rest of your body moves in space around it....
marvin8 wrote:Is ZMQ, in my first reply, an example of what you are trying to explain? There is constant pressure at ZMQ's arm. As ZMQ moves his forearm back, he shifts his body forward. Then, he changes to press.

Sort of, but I think he demonstrated it better in his stealing step. In push hands, his partner would retreat and he would take a half step forward, when the partner tried to move forward he got launched. You can see it easily in the common YouTube video.

While initially keeping constant pressure, both Cejudo and ZMQ set up their opponents by taking a half step forward with their back foot (hidden step), then taking a full step and issuing. This shuffle step can bridge the gap, provide distance deception, intercept the opponent's movement and increase power via momentum. The shuffle step is trained and seen in boxing as well.

Image

Per Goodson, Ti Fang is performed by subtle changes in pressure: 4 oz -> 5oz -> 3 oz -> 5 oz.

Excerpt from "Notes on the Tai Chi Training Method called Ti Fang:"

Stephen J Goodson in 1999 wrote:In the Ti Fang exercise, your initial contact with your partner is at 4oz of pressure. You should have a good feel for this amount of pressure from the preliminary learning of the Push Hands choreography. Suffice to say that it's just about 4oz. Once this contact is established you then start to gently push. When the pressure builds to just more than 4oz [say 5oz] they will reflexively raise slightly, you then withdraw to just under 4oz of pressure [say 3oz, but don't disconnect], and then you accelerate them [pushing through their center]. The withdraw "severs the root" of your opponent so that when you accelerate them away you meet little/no resistance. If you get it right both his feet will leave the ground as he hops away.

As you push into your partner the pressure increase above 4oz should be your mark to withdraw -- but never disconnect. Withdraw and push, "Attract to emptiness, and discharge - without resistance and without letting go". The withdraw is very subtle, but without it you do not sever their root and you would have to use brute force to move them. This is not an exercise of "mechanics" so much as an exercise of tapping into their reflexes.

In addition, there is a moment, a feeling, just after you withdraw and just before you accelerate them, where you must 'harmonize' with their body. Since their body is falling towards you, they deliver their "center" into your hands. Yet at the same time their muscles are reflexively pulling away from you, your acceleration meets no resistance. I refer to this moment, this feeling, as "catching" them (the Classics call it 'joining'). The push has been described as being "like pushing a child in a swing."

Image
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: Constant Pressure, Free Movement

Postby origami_itto on Sun Feb 19, 2023 11:16 am

marvin8 wrote:
origami_itto wrote:If you put that still point in space up against another object, then it is possible to maintain a constant pressure between your hand and that object as the rest of your body moves in space around it....
marvin8 wrote:Is ZMQ, in my first reply, an example of what you are trying to explain? There is constant pressure at ZMQ's arm. As ZMQ moves his forearm back, he shifts his body forward. Then, he changes to press.

Sort of, but I think he demonstrated it better in his stealing step. In push hands, his partner would retreat and he would take a half step forward, when the partner tried to move forward he got launched. You can see it easily in the common YouTube video.

While initially keeping constant pressure, both Cejudo and ZMQ set up their opponents by taking a half step forward with their back foot (hidden step), then taking a full step and issuing. This shuffle step can bridge the gap, provide distance deception, intercept the opponent's movement and increase power via momentum. The shuffle step is trained and seen in boxing as well.

Image

Per Goodson, Ti Fang is performed by subtle changes in pressure: 4 oz -> 5oz -> 3 oz -> 5 oz.

Excerpt from "Notes on the Tai Chi Training Method called Ti Fang:"

Stephen J Goodson in 1999 wrote:In the Ti Fang exercise, your initial contact with your partner is at 4oz of pressure. You should have a good feel for this amount of pressure from the preliminary learning of the Push Hands choreography. Suffice to say that it's just about 4oz. Once this contact is established you then start to gently push. When the pressure builds to just more than 4oz [say 5oz] they will reflexively raise slightly, you then withdraw to just under 4oz of pressure [say 3oz, but don't disconnect], and then you accelerate them [pushing through their center]. The withdraw "severs the root" of your opponent so that when you accelerate them away you meet little/no resistance. If you get it right both his feet will leave the ground as he hops away.

As you push into your partner the pressure increase above 4oz should be your mark to withdraw -- but never disconnect. Withdraw and push, "Attract to emptiness, and discharge - without resistance and without letting go". The withdraw is very subtle, but without it you do not sever their root and you would have to use brute force to move them. This is not an exercise of "mechanics" so much as an exercise of tapping into their reflexes.

In addition, there is a moment, a feeling, just after you withdraw and just before you accelerate them, where you must 'harmonize' with their body. Since their body is falling towards you, they deliver their "center" into your hands. Yet at the same time their muscles are reflexively pulling away from you, your acceleration meets no resistance. I refer to this moment, this feeling, as "catching" them (the Classics call it 'joining'). The push has been described as being "like pushing a child in a swing."

Image

You're understanding is peerless. Thank you for sharing your perspective.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5031
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Constant Pressure, Free Movement

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Feb 19, 2023 4:30 pm

This is all such a misunderstanding of how CMC pushing works
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5660
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Constant Pressure, Free Movement

Postby origami_itto on Mon Feb 20, 2023 7:49 am

wayne hansen wrote:This is all such a misunderstanding of how CMC pushing works

Would love to get your thoughts on how it works.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5031
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Constant Pressure, Free Movement

Postby Doc Stier on Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:15 am

origami_itto wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:This is all such a misunderstanding of how CMC pushing works

Would love to get your thoughts on how it works.

Jasoni-San: Can you keep a secret? You can? Excellent! So can Wayne. LoL ;D
"First in the Mind and then in the Body."
User avatar
Doc Stier
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5693
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:04 pm
Location: Woodcreek, TX

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests