the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Doc Stier wrote:

origami_itto wrote:

wayne hansen wrote:This is all such a misunderstanding of how CMC pushing works

Would love to get your thoughts on how it works.

Jasoni-San: Can you keep a secret? You can? Excellent! So can Wayne. LoL

I am utterly and completely incapable of many things, keeping secrets being chief among them.

No secrets it is just training thru touch until it is intuitive
There is no trying to do anything and no forthought
It is just reading your opponent filling the gap and delivering the pay load
Looking at what CMC does on one bit of film gives you nothing because if his opponent squirms with one ounce of difference the whole outcome differs
I am not trying to be obtuse but as I have said it is literally passed on from hand to hand

What you're talking about is too fast for thought. The jin has to be ready and waiting for that gap.

What I'm talking about is too complex for thought.

I think it's bound up in stick adhere join follow without letting go and without resistance.

But I'm talking even before that, like in a posture or rooting demonstration, for lack of a better word, you legs can move freely without translating that motion into the pressure being exerted on the load.

Again, not something you think about, more a quality I'm noticing.

What I am talking about is breaking CMC,s movement down to push pull half step
That sort of dissection misses the point
It would be like seeing someone walk down the street and break down their thought patterns by their stride
Not only might you be wrong but it is of little value

origami_itto wrote:What you're talking about is too fast for thought. The jin has to be ready and waiting for that gap.

What I'm talking about is too complex for thought.

I think it's bound up in stick adhere join follow without letting go and without resistance.

But I'm talking even before that, like in a posture or rooting demonstration, for lack of a better word, you legs can move freely without translating that motion into the pressure being exerted on the load.

Again, not something you think about, more a quality I'm noticing.

Drill to make two steps (CMC's) into one. "Constant Pressure with Free Movement:"

1. Assume CMC's posture below and imagine a heavy bag. Keep your hands at a constant pressure on the bag.

2. Replace the front foot with the rear foot. And, land the front foot ahead. The front and back foot may be facing at the same angle.

3. Repeat step 2, shuffling back and forth while hands stay in place keeping constant pressure.

4. Pivot the front foot and Ti Fang. All the steps can be one movement.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSYPOhSgiis&t=1m12s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSYPOhSgiis&t=1m52s

marvin8 wrote:

origami_itto wrote:What you're talking about is too fast for thought. The jin has to be ready and waiting for that gap.

What I'm talking about is too complex for thought.

I think it's bound up in stick adhere join follow without letting go and without resistance.

But I'm talking even before that, like in a posture or rooting demonstration, for lack of a better word, you legs can move freely without translating that motion into the pressure being exerted on the load.

Again, not something you think about, more a quality I'm noticing.

Drill to make two steps (CMC's) into one. "Constant Pressure with Free Movement:"

1. Assume CMC's posture below and imagine a heavy bag. Keep your hands at a constant pressure on the bag.

2. Replace the front foot with the rear foot. And, land the front foot ahead. The front and back foot may be facing at the same angle.

3. Repeat step 2, shuffling back and forth while hands stay in place keeping constant pressure.

4. Pivot the front foot and Ti Fang. All the steps can be one movement.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSYPOhSgiis&t=1m12s

That seems like a very useful drill thank you for sharing.

wayne hansen wrote:What I am talking about is breaking CMC,s movement down to push pull half step
That sort of dissection misses the point
It would be like seeing someone walk down the street and break down their thought patterns by their stride
Not only might you be wrong but it is of little value

I think I get what you're driving at. It's like picking a lock where you keep a little tension while tickling the tumblers. They snap into place when you hit the right gap.

He isn't thinking to set the guy up by eating his space and letting him run into him. He's maintaining non threatening contact and listening.

When the partner presents a hollow by running away instead of retreating, he naturally flows into that gap and occupies it so the foundationless return of his partner uproots itself and he releases.

The quality of touch of that non threatening contact should have a term associated with it, as should the openness of the joints that enables it.

One step shuffle works in da streetz. His alignment may be over conservative but successful.

1. Weight on front foot.
2. Shift weight to back foot (roll back/pull), while stepping ahead with front foot. This sets up mechanics for the right hand (push). Target (head) is between both feet.
3. Issue straight right by pushing off both feet, while shifting weight to front foot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOPx5N-hwzw

origami_itto wrote:

Again, not something you think about, more a quality I'm noticing.

a "listening" quality? or a "strength/power" one? this is an improvement you noticed in your body, right?

marvin8 wrote:One step shuffle works in da streetz. His alignment may be over conservative but successful.

1. Weight on front foot.
2. Shift weight to back foot (roll back/pull), while stepping ahead with front foot. This sets up mechanics for the right hand (push). Target (head) is between both feet.
3. Issue straight right by pushing off both feet, while shifting weight to front foot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOPx5N-hwzw

You're right, that's exactly the same thing, thank you.

everything wrote:

origami_itto wrote:

Again, not something you think about, more a quality I'm noticing.

a "listening" quality? or a "strength/power" one? this is an improvement you noticed in your body, right?

Maybe being aware of it is some kind of improvement. Being able to replicate some of the qualities I've run into pushing with people.

I dunno man come on down to Florida for a week or two

origami_itto wrote:
Maybe being aware of it is some kind of improvement. Being able to replicate some of the qualities I've run into pushing with people.

very cool. sounds like progress.

I dunno man come on down to Florida for a week or two

man that sounds fun and educational for sure. i don't even push ("do you even work out, bro?"), lol. really need to get back into it.

I might be nowhere near what you’re trying to describe...

But, it sounds like you're describing the constant light contact
that is required to keep contact with your opponent
in order to stick to & constantly listens to
the magnitude & direction of the opponent's energy?

(That constant lighter pressure
being your symbolic 4 ounces or 5 lbs.
or whatever weight you’re skilled to effectively to use)

That constant lighter pressure than the opponent uses
that you use to glue to them that never lets them get away

Your constant lighter pressure
that could unexpectedly topple the opponent with your skilled minimal force

Trip wrote:I might be nowhere near what you’re trying to describe...

But, it sounds like you're describing the constant light contact
that is required to keep contact with your opponent

Probably what he means. Personally I would not confuse keeping a (very, very) light contact with keeping pressure.

Trying to keep contact with "peng" means resistance, that you offer your opponent a way to attach his strength. This is wrong.

The only way of keeping pressure except a very light contact is to constantly "filling in the gaps". If you keep flooding cavities, following his "yin" movements that goes away from you, attaching to his weaknesses, then keeping pressure means means following so he has no where left to go. He will be stuck or fall, etc.

Bao wrote:

Trip wrote:I might be nowhere near what you’re trying to describe...

But, it sounds like you're describing the constant light contact
that is required to keep contact with your opponent

Probably what he means. Personally I would not confuse keeping a (very, very) light contact with keeping pressure.

Trying to keep contact with "peng" means resistance, that you offer your opponent a way to attach his strength. This is wrong.

The only way of keeping pressure except a very light contact is to constantly "filling in the gaps". If you keep flooding cavities, following his "yin" movements that goes away from you, attaching to his weaknesses, then keeping pressure means means following so he has no where left to go. He will be stuck or fall, etc.

The contact, yes. The amount of pressure can be light or heavy. In this I'm saying any touch is pressure. 4oz or 1000lbs.

I don't understand why what I'm talking about is hard to get. I believe the stationary aspect is about openness in the joints. And here, yes. Imagine holding something heavy against a wall, but maybe you pinned it there by reflex and you aren't in an optimal position to keep it up, or you want to change it up to be able to get one hand in place to grasp it better and set it down gently.

Let's say one way is to lean on it, or keep stiff, which limits your mobility. A better way is keeping the joints loose so that every part of your body except the part holding the load is free to move easily.

You are delivering constant pressure but are moving freely.

If you do this with, let's call it LI, it is qualitatively different. The difference might be called double weighting. Double weighting isn't binary. We've got degrees of seizure that occurs. Sometimes it is just resistance against ourselves.

The same quality of openness applies to the light though, only here the load is moving and we are moving.

Ultimately this enables stick adhere join follow without resistance and without letting go.

So it's a lot of things and also an atomic or fundamental component.

I guess the instructions reveal the quality which then enables the skill. I'm talking about that middle part.

Yielding, yes, following, yes, joining, definitely.

Feet, inches, hundredth parts, thousandth parts.