baguazhang stepping

[everything]

not sure who this is, if it's one of you, etc., but I like these stepping examples



not posting in video links as this is just an example to build up to my questions.

we tend to look at a "1v1 duel" or "1v1 sport fight" as the prevailing assumption. but what do you think really happened, footwork wise, in a, say, multiple guards vs. multiple bandits kind of situation? was "fast footwork" more than the interesting angles? was it a kind of running? how fast? what do you think? what kind of steps if running/walking fast? like a "mid foot strike"?

[windwalker]

interesting site, examples of historical use and training.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDva0RFcDUs&t=87s

[wayne hansen]

Quite different to the square circle I learnt in both Ba kua and tai chi
I will have to have a play with that one
I don’t see where it comes into play with multiple opponents though
We have some 3 person pushing that is great for that

[everything]

i imagine the claim/idea is in a multiple guards vs. multiple bandits/attackers/whatever scenario, the footwork to try to get to unexpected angles takes place when close by (and with weapons of course), but my question is not really about the 1v1 part; more were they literally running from one bandit to the next, or is everybody fighting close together?

so like this:

A A A
D D D
A D A D

or like this:

A D

-------- A D

---------------------A D

if that ascii art works, in the second scenario, one "A" literally runs to help with the next "D". in the first scenario, there is odd angle footwork all in close quarters ... no need to run.

[origami_itto]

i imagine the claim/idea is in a multiple guards vs. multiple bandits/attackers/whatever scenario, the footwork to try to get to unexpected angles takes place when close by (and with weapons of course), but my question is not really about the 1v1 part; more were they literally running from one bandit to the next, or is everybody fighting close together?

so like this:

A A A
D D D
A D A D

or like this:

A D

-------- A D

---------------------A D

if that ascii art works, in the second scenario, one "A" literally runs to help with the next "D". in the first scenario, there is odd angle footwork all in close quarters ... no need to run.

There are many ways to melee and many roles within it.
Single combat is just a bad idea. Everybody pairing off and dueling like some kind of murder bracket tourney is pure fantasy. Any organization that tried fighting like that was quickly eradicated.

I don't know how gaurds did it in China. You would adopt different strategy depending on details but generally you would want to surround manageable clumps of opponents so that you can attack from any side while defending one place while they can only attack one while defending from everywhere and have a huge chance of getting in each other's way. The running from one place to another in my experience has been to support those group efforts once a smaller group had been dealt with sufficiently.

Caravan gaurds are likely working from an ambush, so they are starting behind the 8 ball. I imagine they'd have forward and rear scouts deployed to help detect waiting assailants. In that case you'd have the reverse, turtling up to draw them close enough to counter and using the vehicles and horses as cover and obstacles.

So in those situations, the bandits are also more interested in loot than glory, they just need to distract you long enough to get the goods, and you've got the driver, etc to worry about. So you have to factor that motivation and liability into your tactics.

The footwork is more about getting around obstacles and horses and people and staying on your feet in that situation in my opinion.

[Bhassler]

I very much doubt the bodyguard mythos of kung fu masters fighting off bandits, etc. It just doesn't track with how real criminals operate. The times have changed, but people haven't. As for the bodyguard mythos, fighting is just about the least important skill a good bodyguard has. Much like with caravan guards, the goal is to avoid a fight by superior methodology and planning, not to go all Jackie Chan on some mofo.

[origami_itto]

I very much doubt the bodyguard mythos of kung fu masters fighting off bandits, etc. It just doesn't track with how real criminals operate. The times have changed, but people haven't. As for the bodyguard mythos, fighting is just about the least important skill a good bodyguard has. Much like with caravan guards, the goal is to avoid a fight by superior methodology and planning, not to go all Jackie Chan on some mofo.

Pirates, highwaymen, modern day hijackers, there are plenty of documented examples from history. I don't see why the Chinese would be any different. Wealth is vulnerable in transit, that's why the Knights Templar invented banking.

[Bhassler]

I very much doubt the bodyguard mythos of kung fu masters fighting off bandits, etc. It just doesn't track with how real criminals operate. The times have changed, but people haven't. As for the bodyguard mythos, fighting is just about the least important skill a good bodyguard has. Much like with caravan guards, the goal is to avoid a fight by superior methodology and planning, not to go all Jackie Chan on some mofo.

Pirates, highwaymen, modern day hijackers, there are plenty of documented examples from history. I don't see why the Chinese would be any different. Wealth is vulnerable in transit, that's why the Knights Templar invented banking.

It's not a question of whether or not they existed, it's a question of how they operate. There's no profit in fighting. If a caravan looks well protected, wait for the next one. Either you get the drop, and they can't fight back, or you don't start something that will get you hurt or killed. In either case, there's not really much fighting involved.

[origami_itto]

I very much doubt the bodyguard mythos of kung fu masters fighting off bandits, etc. It just doesn't track with how real criminals operate. The times have changed, but people haven't. As for the bodyguard mythos, fighting is just about the least important skill a good bodyguard has. Much like with caravan guards, the goal is to avoid a fight by superior methodology and planning, not to go all Jackie Chan on some mofo.

Pirates, highwaymen, modern day hijackers, there are plenty of documented examples from history. I don't see why the Chinese would be any different. Wealth is vulnerable in transit, that's why the Knights Templar invented banking.

It's not a question of whether or not they existed, it's a question of how they operate. There's no profit in fighting. If a caravan looks well protected, wait for the next one. Either you get the drop, and they can't fight back, or you don't start something that will get you hurt or killed. In either case, there's not really much fighting involved.

I don't disagree at all. The smart strategy is an ambush that eliminates the caravan's ability to protect itself, and conversely the smart caravan strategy is projecting an image of being not worth the trouble.

However, I would put forward that there was a wide spectrum of situations with varying strength of attackers and defenders, and worth of the cargo. It might possibly be worth more for a criminal to attack than it is for a merchant to defend. Maybe attacker or defender is working off bad information.

Not every traveler on the silk road can afford an imposing coterie of guards sufficient to deter pirates.

I, personally, believe that fair fights are for suckers, but the Barnum Theorem posits there is no shortage of suckers.

[Bao]

I very much doubt the bodyguard mythos of kung fu masters fighting off bandits, etc.

Well, I guess you need to read more history. There is plenty of evidence that IMA ppl worked as body guards and security personnel. Dong Haichuan was a tax collector for many years, and Sun Lutang's bodyguard school is well known and a lot of facts and stories about it is mentioned in many books about Sun Lutang..

It just doesn't track with how real criminals operate.

Have no idea what you mean. What has how real criminals operate to do with anything discussed here? Seems OT.

[Bhassler]

I very much doubt the bodyguard mythos of kung fu masters fighting off bandits, etc.

Well, I guess you need to read more history. There is plenty of evidence that IMA ppl worked as body guards and security personnel. Dong Haichuan was a tax collector for many years, and Sun Lutang's bodyguard school is well known and a lot of facts and stories about it is mentioned in many books about Sun Lutang..

It just doesn't track with how real criminals operate.

Have no idea what you mean. What has how real criminals operate to do with anything discussed here? Seems OT.

Maybe you should have read the thread before responding, because I already addressed your comments. But just for funsies, I'll do it again.

It's like being in security or a bodyguard or even in the military today-- most of it has little or nothing to do with fighting. My first real taiji teacher's teacher was a security guard in Beijing. The only thing that meant as far as his gongfu was that he had a lot of time standing around in a guard shack all night to practice. He wasn't fighting, though. Only 10% of the US military today sees any combat action. Most of soldiering is marching around and waiting. The percentage now is likely significantly lower due to all the technology involved, but even 500% more is still only half. And that's for an entire career, even the ones who fight are not fighting all the time. Most of what makes armies work is logistics. Most of security work is sitting or standing around. Most of bodyguard work is having a basic level of awareness so as not to stick one's proverbial dick in the proverbial blender. 99% of it is not hard or complicated. There are a few outliers, but they are outliers. In CMA, however, we have an entire mythos of credibility based essentially on unverified claims that such and such grandmaster worked at Walmart for a while.

The point is not that people didn't work as body guards and security, it's that those roles don't mean as much as people like to think in their modern day fantasies.

[Bao]

Maybe you should have read the thread before responding, because I already addressed your comments. But just for funsies, I'll do it again.

No I read it. I didn’t think you explained what you meant. A bit clearer now. I still don’t know why you compare those roles with today’s military. No fighting? Of course there was fighting. In the old days robbers attacked with swords, axes and spears. You had to defend yourself from an ambush with whatever you’ve got. The weapons practice was what was important back then. Yes 99% of the time probably meant walking, riding, carrying stuff etc, back then.

Still not sure about your point. You said you don’t believe in mythos about them fighting of robbers etc. I haven’t heard one single such story. I only know what they worked with, their jobs. And this was what they trained for. And now I am not talking about the martial arts they taught. They were trained bodyguards, guards etc. The professional training is not the same as the martial arts we study today.

The point is not that people didn't work as body guards and security, it's that those roles don't mean as much as people like to think in their modern day fantasies.

Of course those roles meant a lot. That was how they earned their living, it was their professions.

[windwalker]

Because of the great market demand,
high level Xingyi masters were paid like today’s professional athletes.

No surprisingly the ranks of elite Xingyi masters and the art itself grew by leaps and bounds during that time.

In Shanxi the number one location for these banks is Taigu.
There one such wealthy banking family the Chao’s (曹) employed over 500 security guards for his household alone.
The martial instructors working for him included such luminaries as Li Laonong (李老农) and Che Yizhai (车毅斋).

[everything]

Supposedly the Yin Bagua folks were imperial guards.
https://www.yinstylebaguazhang.com/about_us.html

yeah, not the same as caravan guards, but ... super hypothetically, whether there is 1v1 (as origami said, a bad idea) or some kind of lines or something smarter ...

Q: what happens in the scenario where you are somehow in a 1v1 and have to run? so basically the answer is "you run" right? any kind of "bagua run/footwork" for that? i realize this question might be ridiculously stupid/specific, but just wondering. i get it that you shouldn't attack the super well protected caravan, but what happened IF/WHEN the fighting actually broke out? ( I assume these martial artists actually HAD to do their job with fighting at times ).

aside from that, also fascinated by the other discussions on the other aspects of this.

[origami_itto]

So as security I have broken up fights in the clubs. Slick dance floor, wet, ice cubes, broken glass. Rushing from action to action without a lot of thought, would hit a slick spot and my legs just sort of snapped into the bagua scissor type stepping. My front foot scooted out in front but then the whole lower body structure kicked in and was solid so I stayed upright. Mobility wise all I can talk about is what taijiquan does for you but I don't think there's much difference in that aspect. Taijiquan gets bagua like when we flow around the force IMHO.