the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

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robert wrote:

windwalker wrote:Interesting choice for examples

There are many possible examples. The video of CB spells it out and CZL points to the three sections as well. It can be seen in any correct taiji.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meS5ZvKZhz4

Had to laugh reading "correct taiji"

Thanks for the translation it is interesting.
As to "correct" Look at it as more a matter of level,
what might be "correct" for some might be a level of understanding for others....
Each correct from the level its viewed in, or from...

Not seeking to prove a point, just sharing some thoughts.

good work translating,,good luck with your practice...

suckinlhbf wrote:尚派形意拳械抉微

There was an interesting explanation and argument on "the root drives it, the middle follows, and it appears at the tip" and "it starts at the tip, the middle follows, and the root drives it" in this book. It was an xingyi book written by 李文彬 who is the son in law of 尚雲祥. The father in law taught "it starts at the tip" and the son in law argued it should be driven by the root. 尚雲祥 was one of the best in Xingyi at his time. It is a good xingyi book if you can read Chinese.

Unfortunately, I don't read Chinese and translation is a slow process for me.

Unfortunately, I don't read Chinese and translation is a slow process for me

Sorry. i thought you can read Chinese. Then, the translation is not only good. It is impressive.

I noticed the alternate translation you gave, too. From what I have been taught, the first version (it starts in the tip) is perfectly correct, although somewhat counter-intuitive. I have seen the other version, but it was not what I was taught.

Graculus
Https://ichijoji.blogspot,com

Graculus wrote:I noticed the alternate translation you gave, too. From what I have been taught, the first version (it starts in the tip) is perfectly correct, although somewhat counter-intuitive.

The problem with the literal translation was that it's contradictory, so it's clearly not what was intended.
[A more literal translation - To mobilize the qi, it starts at the tip, the middle follows, and the root drives it, that is all.]
the root drives it - implies that the mobilization starts there, it doesn't make sense that the root drives it and it starts at the tip.

催 means to urge, to push, to expedite. It is a movement after a motion. "To drive" does not mean " 催".

Another common saying is "起 随 追" or "起 随 催".

suckinlhbf wrote:催 means to urge, to push, to expedite. It is a movement after a motion. "To drive" does not mean " 催".

So, if you push something you think that means what you are pushing moves you?

"要从梢节起，中节随，根节催之而已"
Tip starts, middle follows, and root expedites. Expedite is a better word in this expression. Just translate it from the words. The implication is up to the interpretation of the reader.

drive

2. propel or carry along by force in a specified direction:
- force (a stake or nail) into place by hitting or pushing it:

3. urge or force (animals or people) to move in a specified direction:

@Robert The key to that sentence is whether to start the motion from the tip or the root. There is a 180 degree difference.

suckinlhbf wrote:@Robert The key to that sentence is whether to start the motion from the tip or the root. There is a 180 degree difference.

Of course, and that takes us back to my response to Graculus. 根节催之 - the root section presses/prompts (drives) it. 中节随 - the middle section follows.
要从梢节起 - should obey tip section [to rise / to raise / to get up / to set out / to start / to appear / to launch / to initiate (action) / to draft / to establish / to get (from a depot or counter) / verb suffix, to start / starting from (a time, place, price etc) / classifier for occurrences or unpredictable events: case, instance / classifier for groups: batch, group]

If you go with to start you have a contradiction. I think to appear makes more sense. You also have tip section should obey.

So my literal translation is To mobilize the qi, it appears at the tip, the middle follows, and the root drives it, that is all.

Forum members can look at the possible choices and decide for themselves.

I agree that interpretation is key here, and any translator will naturally tend to interpret the meaning of what they are translating in a way that matches their experience. Personally, I like footnotes that can explain things in more detail without breaking the flow of the translation if the translator is not sure or sees equally valid but different interpretations.

This is a good example, because despite it sounding illogical, I understand ‘it starts at the tip’ – as I noted before, it was how I was taught and makes perfect sense. I would have been disappointed to see it the other way round. I am assuming suckinlhbf is in agreement (apologies if not), but I am not saying this as a criticism of Robert’s choice, but in appreciation of the discussion that has ensued to elucidate both possible interpretations.

It also highlights the possibility that translations can misinform us (again no criticism intended) and that people tend to interpret them in a way that agrees with their preconceived ideas (yes, I am guilty of this).

Best,

Graculus
Https://ichijoji.blogspot.com

Graculus wrote:I agree that interpretation is key here, and any translator will naturally tend to interpret the meaning of what they are translating in a way that matches their experience. Personally, I like footnotes that can explain things in more detail without breaking the flow of the translation if the translator is not sure or sees equally valid but different interpretations.

This is a good example, because despite it sounding illogical, I understand ‘it starts at the tip’ – as I noted before, it was how I was taught and makes perfect sense. I would have been disappointed to see it the other way round. I am assuming suckinlhbf is in agreement (apologies if not), but I am not saying this as a criticism of Robert’s choice, but in appreciation of the discussion that has ensued to elucidate both possible interpretations.

It also highlights the possibility that translations can misinform us (again no criticism intended) and that people tend to interpret them in a way that agrees with their preconceived ideas (yes, I am guilty of this).

Best,

Graculus
Https://ichijoji.blogspot.com

Whatever the wording is, what it means is what's important.
What does "start at the tip" mean in this context to you?

What does ‘start at the tip’ mean to you?

The fingers, sword tip, tip of the spear, etc moves first.

Graculus
Https://ichijoji.blogspot.com