All the CIMA?

[leewanwang]

Sun Lutang’s major focus of study are the three Internal Martial Arts which this subforum is named after: Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, and Taijiquan. He also classified Bajiquan and the Martial Arts of Mount Wudang, as neijia. In the wonderful book by Lu Shengli, Combat Techniques of Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua: Principles and Practices of Internal Martial Arts, Tongbeiquan is also listed as such. On Wikipedia, YiQuan and Zi Ran Men are among the neijia styles.
If you, the reader, were to respond to my thread, how many styles would be on a comprehensive list of extant Chinese Internal Martial Arts styles? What would those styles be?

[wayne hansen]

I have yet to see a TCMA that dosent contain the internal
However I classify ICMA by their Shen Fa body mechanics and only the 3 mentioned are part of that group
Not all of those teaching under that banner follow the criteria that makes them brothers
Hsing I seems to be drifting off the path in the quest for hard power with a lot just looking like bad Karate
It does not change from art to art but from practitioner to practitioner
I remember 40 odd years ago when I left one teacher to follow a more pure path my first teacher took you had to use some hardness to make these arts work
I told him if that was true they were not the art I wanted
The path I took had more depth and reward than I ever thought possible
The only other art I have found that follows that path was FMA
This is the only reason I write here apart from the joy of hearing myself talk

[Bao]

The Wutang group that Sun Lutang was a member of labeled the arts they practiced as "Neijiaquan". They used an old name as a collective name of the different arts they studied there. Not even Sun Lutang believed in separating arts in internal and external arts, it was just a name.

The older name "Neijiaquan" meant boxing arts related to taoist Neidan practice.

So any art beyond those two definitions cannot be internal in the sense of the term "Neijaquan"

[greytowhite]

The "internal" thing always seemed more political than any sort of actual relation. The theory is largely similar but the expressions are different. The only constant I've heard from all sources is to give up conscious strength and get out of one's body with your mind. When you can do that, your actual strength and structure can manifest in really weird and somewhat phenomenal ways. When you can integrate visualization in partner work it's a different level and what was once heavy now feels light to the opponent and effortless to you.

[Appledog]

However I classify ICMA by their Shen Fa body mechanics and only the 3 mentioned are part of that group
Not all of those teaching under that banner follow the criteria that makes them brothers
[...] I remember 40 odd years ago when I left one teacher to follow a more pure path my first teacher took you had to use some hardness to make these arts work
I told him if that was true they were not the art I wanted
The path I took had more depth and reward than I ever thought possible

Did you mean that over time you overcame a preconception about internal-soft/hard vs. internal-soft, or did you mean your experience caused you to go further down the path of softness only?

[wayne hansen]

I no longer know what is soft and what is hard
Soft things I deliver feel hard to others
People being soft on me feel hard
All arts contain internal some more than others
If you break the principles in one place you break them everywhere
The 3 internals are related by sharing the same Shen Fa other arts have their own Shen Fa
Some people say Aikido is internal but I see it more like white crane than the 3
Bruce Lee regretted that he named his art that’s how I feel about the 3
I see people who no doubt are skilled at Hsing I but their quest of power takes them down a different path
I love the mechanics of 6 harmony Hsing I but some get so tied up in the mechanics that they restrict the flow of chi and thus martial outcome
I Chuan likewise people so tied up in the method of no method they loose sight of why they train the way they do
It is hard to explain on line
I have been taking a senior student thru the basic tai chi pole form
He has the basic form and flow but small corners he is missing are the key to the next door he must open
When I showed him what he was missing it was so simple but he was dumbfounded
I have spent every day since devising moves to put in the form to get him to another place
These moves will be thrown away once he learns their lesson
Like him I could show others in person but it is hard to explain in words
I hope this is cleared

[everything]

how many styles would be on a comprehensive list of extant Chinese Internal Martial Arts styles? What would those styles be?

this is necessarily an academic (which is fine) question, right, because nobody can really even study (to a very advanced stage) 3 of them? Q: why would you want to list the number? do you want to study "more"? or just curious?

[Trip]

I no longer know what is soft and what is hard
Soft things I deliver feel hard to others
People being soft on me feel hard
All arts contain internal some more than others

I have been taking a senior student thru the basic tai chi pole form
He has the basic form and flow but small corners he is missing are the key to the next door he must open
When I showed him what he was missing it was so simple but he was dumbfounded
I have spent every day since devising moves to put in the form to get him to another place
These moves will be thrown away once he learns their lesson
Like him I could show others in person but it is hard to explain in words

Thumbs up!
Thanks for sharing

[Bhassler]

Here's a scholarly look at the history of the term: https://nysanda.wordpress.com/2016/03/2 ... l-nei-jia/
In short, it's marketing and propaganda, and doesn't mean anything.

[windwalker]

Here's a scholarly look at the history of the term: https://nysanda.wordpress.com/2016/03/2 ... l-nei-jia/
In short, it's marketing and propaganda, and doesn't mean anything.

My experience has been quite different spanning many yrs of practice with those that did make the distinction
able to show and demonstrate it....

Even for arts considered external practices had specialized internal practices, recognizing the differences....
example "needle in cotton" set of Tibetan white crane that I've seen ...looks almost taiji like in practice thought to develop focus on the internal aspects

along with burning palm a training based on developing internal force, combined with external conditioning to express it...

The terminology as used by those I know it's quite explicit in that it only refers to an understanding of different training methods leading to different outcomes
many of which are very distinct at the higher levels of practice, none of which anyone in the higher levels of practice would recommend doing both for anyone feeling
they would lead one to the same outcome...

Even among what are called the 3 sister arts..they are not the same.

Hu was not really able to let go of his xingyi.
He was already a great master, and thus it was very difficult to "throw it out the window".
Zhang kept telling Hu that his jin (internal energy) was wrong - it was a xingyi type, not a taiji type of energy.

Hu said that there was nothing he could do because he had been practicing that way for so long.
was able to let go of his xingyi it would be quite difficult to teach him Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan.

[wayne hansen]

White crane has some good noi gung
As for the needle in cotton set being similar to tai chi that is a bit of a stretch

[windwalker]

White crane has some good noi gung
As for the needle in cotton set being similar to tai chi that is a bit of a stretch

and that's it, your final comment...



leave to others to see or not the similarities...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiPrJzWwr_Q

In this video my Sifu and friend, the late Ron Dong, demonstrates the Cotton Needle Set.
Posted at his request, the video shows the full set from the front and back.
Sifu Ron Dong passed away in January of 2021 in San Francisco CA.
This is a gift to all students of the martial-arts. It represents only the smallest fraction of the knowledge and history that we have lost.

Note the foot work patterns,, representing plum flower post...and the stepping...

in the old days they practiced the forms on poles





Sad to hear about Ron Dong,,,He and Mike both studied under Gorge Long..








Never learned the needle in cotton, only noted clips posted of it...

Did make a set for my practice at one time a fusion of taiji and Tibetan White Crane
Had a lot of encouragement from my teacher "Mike" and Chin Shifu "David Chin"
noted hop gar master....

An experiment at the time,,,discontinued for various reasons

[origami_itto]

What is a martial art? The method or the result? The training or the strategy?

[Giles]

White crane has some good noi gung
As for the needle in cotton set being similar to tai chi that is a bit of a stretch

and that's it, your final comment...

leave to others to see or not the similarities...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiPrJzWwr_Q

I watched about a third of this, sampling a minute or so at the start, in the middle and towards the end. It's really nice stuff, I can see the skill and a type of softness in the movements, but I wouldn't call it "similar to tai chi" either. Here, the movements of the arms are being carried and supported by the legs and waist, while the arm movements/techniques are mostly being initiated in the area of the solar plexus and chest. So I don't see the true integration and connection between upper and lower body - often with the lower body initiating movement - that I see (or sometimes feel) in good tai chi. Or indeed in bagua zhang or xingyi quan, even if other qualities in these two arts are different to most tai chi. Moreover, the orientation of hips, legs and feet is a bit more horizontal in space, meaning a 'back and forth' kind of movement arises in mind and body, instead of the 'vertical' orientation of mind and body in tai chi. This vertical orientation should of course be maintained in tai chi when moving horizontally through space, i.e. when stepping.
And since Ron Dong was obviously a skilled practitioner, I assume that the different relationship between upper and lower body shown in this video is really characteristic of the art, not because he wasn't very good.

[windwalker]

interesting detailed comments,

On this site those who don't practice / know taiji, are often used as examples to show "similar" ideas in use "marvin8"

It was thought at one time Chen style was not taiji until it was....The distinction for not being taiji based on obvious movement differences and focus.
The acknowledgment that it was more of a recognition of it being the foundation from which what is known as taiji developed from...

Needle in cotton set, one of the last sets learned, considered as high level embodying the characteristics and philosophy of the styles movement
in a format thought to enhance and integrate internal movement thus "similar" to what is viewed commonly as taiji practiced for the same reasons within a format specifically develop for doing so.

n-mantis also has some set work, designed along the same lines thought to develop the same skill set/abilities done in the same way, using movement patterns
characteristic of the style

Depending on the focus of the taiji practiced, there is a wide latitude of movement patterns...
All CMA is internal by nature coming from the culture that originated the concepts...
Expressions and development varying among the different methods and stylistic interpretations...

For example the 3 internal sister arts, some feel are the same, I would say are quite different...
Historically, this was noted as also many of the old masters I've had the chance to meet also note..

Sad to hear of Ron's passing,,,never got the chance to met him,
Some times one may not really realize how short the time all have,
the end the beginning

Condolences to family, friends and students