So this releasing crap just keeps going, huh?

[Appledog]

But they lied, man, just straight up told a falsehood in print in this same book that you are using as proof that they are transmitting the complete and accurate system.

Now, consider for a second this... We know that there is more to Taijiquan than the long form and basic push hands drills. So if he is saying that this book contains "the complete methodology of form and function into a complete volume, including the fundamental training method" that seems a bit of a stretch, particularly when later in the same text he says he's intending to publish more details in a second book that didn't get written.

It's sales patter. [...]

Now the ten important points.... I'm gonna have to ask you to take a seat for this one.

In the book Dong Ying Jie wrote for him, there were 20 points. Two lists of ten that the ten we know today were drawn from both of them. The other ten were just tossed out. The ones that were lost were the ones that involved more physically strenuous training, such as "the thigh should be parallel to the floor".

So the "ten points" are just a package for the entry level basic health maintenance crowd that they were hawking the system to. The dilettantes and old folks with money that would take that money elsewhere if you told them to get in a horse stance.

It's sales and marketing, [...]

I think the situation is a little worse -- especially these days. Each of these "important points" is the result of a particular daoyin or qigong exercise, the "results" of which are described as an important point. This is, after all, kungfu. Why this was done this way I don't know, because while beginners and the uninitiated are excluded from ever truly understanding these points, those "in the know" recognize immediately what is being discussed and can draw out a "general picture" of what is "really" being discussed. Since, without actually naming particular things, they are alluded to in description; being talked around the mulberry bush so to speak.

For example if one performs Warlord Brandishes Trophy (霸王举鼎 bà wáng jǔ dǐng) every day for one hour, it will inform their understanding and ability to express point #1. The so called "iron gate" is apparently a very difficult place to open. Yang Cheng-Fu mentions this area and that it should be open, but does not refer to any exercise one can do to actually open it. I cannot however imagine that it is possible to open this area without at least performing an exercise like warlord. Which is merely the first in a series of progression daoyin exercises designed to open this area. Yes it is difficult but how much more difficult is it to do if one is swimming in the dark with no map from point a to b?

In any case one may presume that if one actually becomes a student of the Yang family these things will eventually be taught. For me, knowing the difficulty in finding a qualified teacher of Yang style, I decided to go to other styles (sun, etc.) in the hopes of getting a second opinion -- so to speak.

[charlie_cambridge]

For me, knowing the difficulty in finding a qualified teacher of Yang style, I decided to go to other styles (sun, etc.) in the hopes of getting a second opinion -- so to speak.

My personal experience has been the Wu style seems to have better quality control. Not perfect either, but based on the few Wu people I've met and the many Yang people I've met, randomly meeting a stranger there seems to be a higher chance of them having better fundamentals if they are a Wu stylist in the US (or Shnaghai) than if they are a Yang stylist.

I have respect for YCF of course, his grandfather's skill made taiji famous (and got the name "taiji" assigned to the art), YCF is my teacher's teacher's teacher so of course grateful everything I know ultimately came from him.

At the same time I have to acknowledge that for whatever reason he and his family are at least partially responsible for the proliferation of what is now commonly recognized as "Yang style" taiji around the world, for better and for worse. Then again, maybe "taiji" in its modern popular incarnation helps a lot more people than any martial art ever would, so I'm not in a position to judge, and however hidden/etc it is, the knowledge I have wouldn't be available at all if it weren't for YCF, so something to be said for gratitude and not pouncing on someone for not perfectly giving us everything we want.

"you shared gems with the world but did not open up all your coffers unconditionally in the format that we want so that makes you a liar/person of terrible character" has a bit of an entitled ring to it, so I personally don't hold it against YCF, ZMQ etc if they did not openly write down everything about taiji.

@trip who seems rather upset about this, yes I did say Huang deliberately withheld things on video (i.e. incorrect for training certain things we train), I also said what he showed instead was not harmful. I don't see how that makes him a liar anymore than you not openly posting your social security number and credit card numbers makes you a liar? I'd suggest taking a different perspective, in the old teachers' time their knowledge of the exercises to develop martial skill was probably more valuable and potentially dangerous in their time than your credit card information is today. Everyone takes it for granted that you would not openly share your credit card info, but for some reason you have an expectation that they should share that knowledge. I'd suggest examining the source of that expectation.

[charlie_cambridge]

Personally I'm not a big fan of "sink the chest and pluck up the back" because it's easily misinterpreted to mean collapse the chest in front.

Our alignment involves opening the chest in front and dropping the scapula in back (and stretching the back of the neck e.g. nucal ligament on top) --that's maybe what "sink the chest and pluck up the back" was intended to mean but can easily read as almost the opposite for someone who's not taught the specific alignment in person. But again that's a lot like many of the taiji books, not intended as standalone instruction.

But they lied, man, just straight up told a falsehood in print in this same book that you are using as proof that they are transmitting the complete and accurate system.

Now, consider for a second this... We know that there is more to Taijiquan than the long form and basic push hands drills. So if he is saying that this book contains "the complete methodology of form and function into a complete volume, including the fundamental training method" that seems a bit of a stretch, particularly when later in the same text he says he's intending to publish more details in a second book that didn't get written.

It's sales patter. [...]

Now the ten important points.... I'm gonna have to ask you to take a seat for this one.

In the book Dong Ying Jie wrote for him, there were 20 points. Two lists of ten that the ten we know today were drawn from both of them. The other ten were just tossed out. The ones that were lost were the ones that involved more physically strenuous training, such as "the thigh should be parallel to the floor".

So the "ten points" are just a package for the entry level basic health maintenance crowd that they were hawking the system to. The dilettantes and old folks with money that would take that money elsewhere if you told them to get in a horse stance.

It's sales and marketing, [...]

I think the situation is a little worse -- especially these days. Each of these "important points" is the result of a particular daoyin or qigong exercise, the "results" of which are described as an important point. This is, after all, kungfu. Why this was done this way I don't know, because while beginners and the uninitiated are excluded from ever truly understanding these points, those "in the know" recognize immediately what is being discussed and can draw out a "general picture" of what is "really" being discussed. Since, without actually naming particular things, they are alluded to in description; being talked around the mulberry bush so to speak.

For example if one performs Warlord Brandishes Trophy (霸王举鼎 bà wáng jǔ dǐng) every day for one hour, it will inform their understanding and ability to express point #1. The so called "iron gate" is apparently a very difficult place to open. Yang Cheng-Fu mentions this area and that it should be open, but does not refer to any exercise one can do to actually open it. I cannot however imagine that it is possible to open this area without at least performing an exercise like warlord. Which is merely the first in a series of progression daoyin exercises designed to open this area. Yes it is difficult but how much more difficult is it to do if one is swimming in the dark with no map from point a to b?

In any case one may presume that if one actually becomes a student of the Yang family these things will eventually be taught. For me, knowing the difficulty in finding a qualified teacher of Yang style, I decided to go to other styles (sun, etc.) in the hopes of getting a second opinion -- so to speak.

[origami_itto]

Personally I'm not a big fan of "sink the chest and pluck up the back" because it's easily misinterpreted to mean collapse the chest in front.

Our alignment involves opening the chest in front and dropping the scapula in back (and stretching the back of the neck e.g. nucal ligament on top) --that's maybe what "sink the chest and pluck up the back" was intended to mean but can easily read as almost the opposite for someone who's not taught the specific alignment in person. But again that's a lot like many of the taiji books, not intended as standalone instruction.

In Tai Chi Chuan and meditation, Da Liu says that instruction refers to the movement of Qi in the lesser heavenly circulation, not a physical posture instruction.

[charlie_cambridge]

Thanks for that info, is "lesser heavenly circulation" just a different translation of micro cosmic orbit (Xiao Zhou Tian) or referring to something else?

If MCO we go up the back first before coming down the front in each cycle, so again the Chinese instruction from YCF is at best shorthand (but as we discussed/reinforces the point that the book was not meant as a standalone reference, just as the taiji classics are shorthand for those who already know, not really helpful as a standalone reference)

Personally I'm not a big fan of "sink the chest and pluck up the back" because it's easily misinterpreted to mean collapse the chest in front.

Our alignment involves opening the chest in front and dropping the scapula in back (and stretching the back of the neck e.g. nucal ligament on top) --that's maybe what "sink the chest and pluck up the back" was intended to mean but can easily read as almost the opposite for someone who's not taught the specific alignment in person. But again that's a lot like many of the taiji books, not intended as standalone instruction.

In Tai Chi Chuan and meditation, Da Liu says that instruction refers to the movement of Qi in the lesser heavenly circulation, not a physical posture instruction.

[origami_itto]

Thanks for that info, is "lesser heavenly circulation" just a different translation of micro cosmic orbit (Xiao Zhou Tian) or referring to something else?

Yes, same thing as MCO.

And well you know, like anything, listen to your own body. It can also refer to other things.

Here are the 20 points I was talking about.

身法
RULES FOR THE BODY

提起精神
[1] Raise the spirit.
虛靈頂勁
[2] Forcelessly press up your headtop.
含胸拔背
[3] Contain the chest and pull up the back.
鬆肩墜肘
[4] Loosen the shoulders and drop the elbows.
氣沉丹田
[5] Energy sinks to the elixir field.
手與肩平
[6] The hands are at shoulder level.
胯與膝平
[7] The hips are at knee level.
尻道上提
[8] Tuck in the anus.
尾閭中正
[9] The tailbone is centered.
內外相合
[10] Inside and outside merge together.

練法
RULES FOR PRACTICE

不强用力
[1] Do not forcefully apply power.
以心行氣
[2] Use the mind to move energy.
步如貓行
[3] Step like a cat.
上下相隨
[4] The upper body and lower coordinate with each other.
呼吸自然
[5] The breathing is natural.
一線串成
[6] The whole thing is a single thread throughout.
變換在腰
[7] Changes are in the waist.
氣行四肢
[8] Energy travels to the four limbs.
分淸虛實
[9] Clearly distinguish empty and full.
圓轉如意
[10] Turn with roundness and facility.

[wayne hansen]

USP
unique selling point
This seems to be main aim of what is being pushed here
I have seen a long tape of Huangs 10 year celebration in Malaysia
It had about 10 of Huangs schools doing every aspect of his system
The exercises were much the same as they are presented on line
Are you saying they were all doing it deliberately wrong
CC you claim knowledge of both yang and Wu as well as HSS
I would like to know how long you spent in each art to give validations to the claims you make
What you seem to present here is you it wrong we got it right and we won’t show the difference
Seems like a publicity campaign for your teacher

[charlie_cambridge]

Hi Wayne,

I don’t know the people in Huang’s 10 yr celebration or how many of those studied with Huang directly. For example I understand Adam Mizner performed there and his original connection was through PK’s student (I believe Roger Cotgreave) so technically he was expelled from the lineage).

In this day and age I believe most people teach earnestly so if someone doing it wrong on video (maybe with some exceptions) more likely they were not inner school (or their teacher was not) and they are doing to best of their sincere ability just never got true transmission for whatever reason.

To be clear we claim nothing unique, PK is very transparent who his teachers were, they had many other serious students and there are many other serious inner schools of taiji outside our lineage too. I would expect them to have much of the same knowledge.

Not sure what you mean I claim “knowledge of both Yang and Wu”: if you read my email above on that my experience was touching hands with people from the Yang and Wu lineages and my personal experiences there. I am not going to debate who counts as “true” Yang/Wu/etc, for the purposes of the context I take people at face value whatever they claim their lineage to be, and to clarify what I mean by “quality control” I mean when a stranger in the US (or Shanghai) tells me they trained a few years or more Wu, they are more likely to be more skilled than similar stranger who claims to have trained a few years Yang, based on my personal experience.

I am not commenting on whether they represent the “true” lineages or not (as far as I’m concerned their is no difference between true Yang and true Wu since real taiji is just taiji), so maybe “quality control” not the right term but by point (for practical purposes in context of what we were discussing) is that someone claiming to be Wu is generally more likely to know something than someone claimjng Yang lineage in my experience.

I said “quality control” because ultimately I think it is at least in some part the teacher’s responsibility and influenced by how the original familes chose to teach (or not teach etc).

To answer your questiom directly (also on homepage of my website): I trained Yang style since 2001, first with a US student of ZMQ from NY Shr Jung (who had permission to teach from both Ed Young and Ben Lo) until 2007, dropped into Maggie Newman’a push hands meets and touched hands with US ZMQ (and some assorted other characters) for a few years while there, then studied with Ben Lo (through my first teacher’s intro) 2 hrs weekly in San Francisco 2008-2010 (Ben officially retired but unofficially ran a weekly practice for his longer time students and allowances for young Chinese kids like me to join), then moved to Shanghai for work 2010 where I visited Fu Zhongwen’s school as well as a Wu stylist several generations down from Ma Yueliang, visited the Wu guy who was much more open about pushing hands several times a month in the park for a year or two, mostly trained on my own until I found PK’s class in Shanghai 2014. Then moved back to US and studied with Tim Suh (PK’s student) in Chicago 2015-2017 occasionally visiting other taiji folks in town. Then moved to Boston 2017 and visited a variety of local teachers looking for a school to join, decided to stick with PK’s stuff and started teaching near my house in 2021. Has a couple interesting visits since I started teaching (I used to visit people before so fair enough) from Chen, Wu and Yang people. The Wu person was the only person so far I’d consider pushing hands with outside of class after one initial “introduction” private free push: some of the others joined my class, I would not consider pushing hands casually with them otherwise as not interesting to me. The Wu guy also joined while in town; he’s the only one I’d consider casually pushing with because I find it useful training for myself, but coincidentally he’s also serious so moot point, he’d join the class and then stay hours after to continue pushing more.

[wayne hansen]

I am not talking about the celebration 10 years after his death
The one I am referring to 10 years after he moved to Malaysia
Everyone present was a direct student of Huang
Long before Roger or Adam ever heard of Huang
I don’t know how you can judge the difference between yang and Wu just by pushing with a few people
How long have you been training is it just with PK
To know would shine a light on your claims

[Trip]

I did say Huang deliberately withheld things on video (i.e. incorrect for training certain things we train)

Deliberately "withheld" has a very different meaning than...

...yes I am saying Huang deliberately did it wrong in the film on youtube.
Huang deliberately showed incorrect things in public.
he is making a conscious effort to deliberately do certain things completely incorrectly.

It sure looks like you are the person who is being deliberately misleading

[Trip]

@trip who seems rather upset about this,

Again, it’s really simple.

I asked you a question because you said Haung deliberately did Taiji incorrectly
in any public pictures and video.
And you included ZMQ & YCF.

I posted 2 pictures of Yang Chengfu
and asked you to show what is deliberately incorrect about the pictures?

Your answer to the question is that I’m upset?
Where you got I was upset boggles the mind.

Don't over complicate it.
It's simple.
Can you prove what you said about any public pictures of Yang Chengfu or not?

It would be the same if you said that Albert Einstein said 2+2 = 17
I, or someone else, would ask for proof of where Einstein said such an idiotic thing.

[charlie_cambridge]

@Wayne
I think we crossed messages, see updated above for my training history. I trained approx 3500-5000 hrs prior to meeting PK in 2014(14 yrs, 1 hr day on avg, 2-3 hrs-day first 5 yrs, 1-2 next 5, and maybe 30 min a day on avg on my own for 4 yrs up to PK)
Also see msg above as well for elaboration on: I am not talking about difference between Yang and Wu, but likelihood someone knows what they’re doing if they say they studied Yang vs if they say they studied Wu.

Sorry I was thinking anniversary after death. Do you have link to vid you’re talking about? PK might be in it.

PK told us (also wrote about it in “Infinite Dao” I think) about one public class Huang gave to the locals where PK noticed the breathing felt completely wrong and asked a classmate, who asked Huang. Huang quickly shushed them and told them to ask him later in private. Later in private Huang said yes he taught the complete wrong thing in public because he didn’t know the people in the class so how could he trust them with the real thing?

Before I ever met PK, I heard from US ZMQ students how prior to accepting Huang as a student, ZMQ background checked his family for 3 generations (one example of how seriously teachers vetted their students before teaching them for real)

[wayne hansen]

Who was the CMC person you trained with
Huang was accepted by CMC after he was vouched for by yap Sui ting
Thé film i saw was on VHS
I saw it many times but have never seen it online
There were no westerners in the film so your teacher would not be in it
I thin Huang moved to Malaysia in 59 so it would have been 69
There was also a large accompanying book

[charlie_cambridge]

My first CMC teacher was Liam Comerford 2001-2007, then Ben Lo 2008-2010 (most senior student of CMC in US). I trained what they taught me (holding low one legged postures every day etc) until I met PK in 2014.

Thanks, yes PK did not start with Huang until 1973ish give or take.

[robert]

My first CMC teacher was Liam Comerford 2001-2007, then Ben Lo 2008-2010 (most senior student of CMC in US). I trained what they taught me (holding low one legged postures every day etc) until I met PK in 2014.

I have a question if you don't mind. There's a video of ZMQ discussing qi circulation and taijiquan. It's not clear if he taught students how to circulate qi while they did the form. Did Ben Lo teach students how to circulate qi while they did the form?