Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

[salcanzonieri]

Found this to be an interesting short video:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WrVmxpp1vmo

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WrVmxpp1vmo[/youtube]

[Bao]

Perfectly true. What he is talking about is that the terminology and way of thinking about qi etc that is totally different in Chinese medicin. Also remember that most Qigong is based on the theories of Chinese traditional medicine. Tai Chi has more in common with different types of Taoist and (Chinese) Buddhist spiritual practice. This is exactly why I am very opposed the idea that Tai Chi is Qigong. It is not. Everybody believes Tai Chi is Qigong. But if you apply Chinese medicine and qigong thinking on Tai Chi, your Tai Chi will be wrong.

[origami_itto]

How is that in any way accurate?

Not all Qigong is created equally. It's patently absurd to say that taijiquan doesn't contain Qigong. What is Qigong? Are you using a limited definition?

The yang family manuals make direct reference to orally transmitted pressure point striking that is directly related to the meridians, channels, and watches.

The meditation instructions fill the classics.

There is also an expansive body of work directly examining the energy work as it relates to the movements. Postures can be prescribed as medicine and are related to meridians. The greater and lesser heavenly circulation is right there, why would you not lean into it?

I guess... Your Taijiquan doesn't have to incorporate energy work, but I just have to wonder why you would omit it? It's like investing in a high power sniper rifle and only shooting blanks.

[yeniseri]

Well, let me get started

1. Taijiquan is no longer practiced as martial system (but there are the few who have access to that former phase of training and they practice it as such,
2. Today (since the 1950s , perhaps even before with Wang Peisheng and his shortening of Wushitaijiquan ("Quanyu/Jianquan lineage'). the yangsheng element (as in fitness, wellness, etc) became the modus opernadi
of a different form and shape of integration and synthesis.
3. The meridians (jingluo) are a natural part of the human body, with or without 'yangsheng' practices so in that context, no relationship
4. BUT when we utilize chanssujin (silk reeling mechanisms) within a taijiquan sequence, the meridians (jingluo) are 'energized" "integrated" based on the degree of waist turning, lower (snake creeps down or dragon on ground, etc ) and upper body movements, stooping, etc so as to meter blood (qi follows blood per the Classics ) so it become a type of 'marrow washing' of the musculoskeletal system for 30min-1hr depending on how long one practices daily for the lifelong gong (conditioning and persistance.
5. The samy way that x qigong routine "cleanses the body" (example WIld Goose Qigong) through the 'manipulation of postural shapes, movement with accompanying frequency, energy and vibration with mental clarity". taijiquan does the same thing based on those same/similar criteria.

NOTE: Just in case some of you may not know, qigong is actually a new coining/descriptive mandated in 1949ish since many systems went by such names as neigong, yangsheng x routine. neiyangong, daoyin, etc and these were part of the old ways considered feudal so the new ways were created included the renaming of systems/health routines, etc. The book "Qigong Fever" by David Palmer gives an excellent 'sociological view' of that era with corresponding references. I would recommend this book to the greater audience to get information very few people know or they just hide the information as they see fit. Excellent read, nontheless.
Feng Ziqiang (Chen teacher learned "neigong" (qigong) from Hu Yaozhen (XIngy!) who incorporated yangsheng concepts into his routines and HU (Yaozhen) later became a director of the major Beijing hospital

[wayne hansen]

Even though tai chi dosent concentrate on meridian direction it is none the less accomplished by way of correct practice
The applications direct the mind
Just the same way we don’t concentrate on breathing but it is there just the same
I didn’t watch the clip because since the Xmas debacle I find he would pollute my training
It is the same reason I said I don’t push with most people
Thé séquence and structure direct the chi
The 24 dosent have it the 108 does

[johnwang]

The 24 dosent have it the 108 does

The ending move of the 108 is the Qi Gong training - 藏气. Sometime I only taught this move to old people for health.

[greytowhite]

The 24 dosent have it the 108 does

The ending move of the 108 is the Qi Gong training - 藏气. Sometime I only taught this move to old people for health.

I recently learned a set from Jou Tsung Hwa's line that really expands on this pattern. It's in his Dao of Taijiquan. We call it Autumn Sunrise in our line but I don't know of any instructionals for it.

[Bao]

How is that in any way accurate?

Not all Qigong is created equally. It's patently absurd to say that taijiquan doesn't contain Qigong. What is Qigong? Are you using a limited definition?

Qigong as a term was never meant to mean general energy work, or general "qi" practice. It was coined around 1949-50 (As Yeneseri mentions) when Chinese medicine was promoted openly. Qigong is a TCM term meaning Chinese medical exercises taught by TCM doctors that should regulate the body and organ in a medical way. Everything else after the 1950s that is called Qigong (exercises that really are qigong) is based on TCM theory. The theory and the understanding of qi in Tai Chi, as well as the main exercise itself, are based on much older practice. Tai Chi does not use TCM terminology or TCM theory so Tai Chi practice is NOT qigong.

The yang family manuals make direct reference to orally transmitted pressure point striking that is directly related to the meridians, channels, and watches.

The meditation instructions fill the classics.

There is also an expansive body of work directly examining the energy work as it relates to the movements. Postures can be prescribed as medicine and are related to meridians. The greater and lesser heavenly circulation is right there, why would you not lean into it?

Nothing of this have anything to do with Qigong. Greater and lesser heavenly circulation is not QIgong, it comes from Daoist neigong and meditation.

I guess... Your Taijiquan doesn't have to incorporate energy work, but I just have to wonder why you would omit it? It's like investing in a high power sniper rifle and only shooting blanks.

Don't talk rubbish. Tai Chi does not "incorporate" energy work. Tai Chi IS energy work. If you practice Tai Chi, you practice neigong. Not Qigong.

[wayne hansen]

Of course there was chi gung before the government decided to name it in 49
I know TCM doctors who wouldn’t know chi gung if you ran over them with it
Yes it is energy work but only when it reaches certain criteria

[origami_itto]

Don't talk rubbish. Tai Chi does not "incorporate" energy work. Tai Chi IS energy work. If you practice Tai Chi, you practice neigong. Not Qigong.

Tomato potato, you're being pedantic for the sake of having a hill to die on.

The point is that whatever you call it, you're doing energy work.

If we want to split hairs the venn gets stupid, so what's the point?

We move energy through meridians to cultivate it. Call it what you like, it doesn't change a thing.

[Bao]

Tomato potato, you're being pedantic for the sake of having a hill to die on.

The point is that whatever you call it, you're doing energy work.
If we want to split hairs the venn gets stupid, so what's the point?

You are just being silly and unnecessarily confrontative.

No it's not about being pedantic, it's about what kind of energy work and the purpose of what you are doing. Not all different kind of energy work, types of movements and exercises are compatible. If you have respect for what you are doing, you don't just mix stuff together, you study something, learn about it carefully before you bring in something else to your practice, or before you start mixing something together.

It's about attitude and respect for what you are doing, as well as understanding your own goals and focus. Many people who combine their IMA practice with qigong, or other TCMA don't understand what they are doing. They are unfocused, wasting time and energy. They prolong their path or by their own actions, make sure they will never achieve their goals. Some people would even warn about different types of "qi-diseases", when mixing types of internal practices, but I myself won't go so far.
(But still, doing some things wrong, practice some types of exercises too much and similar, might affect things as your mood and sense of well-being in a negative manner)

We move energy through meridians to cultivate it. Call it what you like, it doesn't change a thing.

Affecting meridians generally or indirectly as with Tai Chi, or directly with specific methods designed to affect a specific organ in a specific way, are two entirely different things. If you understand it or not, all types of internal cultivation are still not the same.

Edit: Some qigong methods are designed to increase the body's Yang, others will make your body more yin. If you have different types of diseases, the first type of practice might be better for your condition, the other might make it worse. This means that you should be careful about practicing medical qigong.

Tai Chi has the benefit that it will regulate and balance the body's yin and yang, not making it either too much yang or yin (if you practice correctly).

[wiesiek]

"...Edit: Some qigong methods are designed to increase the body's Yang, others will make your body more yin. If you have different types of diseases, the first type of practice might be better for your condition, the other might make it worse. This means that you should be careful about practicing medical qigong. ..."

not quite ,
all full qi gongs practices are balanced.
Of course any of them is including part/s/ more yin or yang and can be practised (prescribed) accordingly to the patients conditions,
but
if you`re workin` with full set, benefits will be the same like marked by you for TJ:

>>>"Tai Chi has the benefit that it will regulate and balance the body's yin and yang, not making it either too much yang or yin (if you practice correctly)...."<

so
considering it - we can quite legit call TJ - one from the qigongs pools of forms .

[Bob]

There is a series on CCTV that brings together a number of qi gong practitioners, taiji practitioners and TCM practitioners illustrating the relationship between various qi gong postures, taiji postures and meridians.

For example, one guest illustrated the relationship between an executed posture from ba duan jin and the organ meridian. Clearly ba duan jin existed and was practiced long before 1949 - so I wonder what ba duan jin was referred to as: qi gong, nei gong, for some other nomenclature? Perhaps the meridian illustration was an add-on after 1949?

Another example was an elderly Beijing disciple of Feng Zhiqiang's taiji demonstrating the "wave hands like clouds" and its affect on the meridians.

Perhaps modern revision? I don't know. However the common river among all it is the Yi Jing and derivation of Yin Yang relationships.

[robert]

Just an FYI for people not familiar with qigong. Qigong means qi work or qi cultivation. Liang Shouyu has a book entitled - Qigong Empowerment: A Guide to Medical, Taoist, Buddhist and Wushu Energy Cultivation.

https://www.amazon.com/Qigong-Empowerment-Medical-Buddhist-Cultivation/dp/1889659029

Yang Jwingming has numerous books on qigong. In The Root of Chinese Qigong—Secrets for Health, Longevity, and Enlightenment he has a list of categories - scholar qigong, medical qigong, martial qigong, and religious qigong.

https://ymaa.com/publishing/book/root-chinese-qigong%E2%80%94secrets-health-longevity-and-enlightenment-3rd-ed

YJM has other qigong books as well. Qigong Grand Circulation for Spiritual Enlightenment, Qigong The Secret of Youth 3rd ed.—Damo's Muscle Tendon Changing & Marrow Brain Washing Classic, Qigong Meditation Embryonic Breathing—The Foundation of Internal Elixir Cultivation 2nd ed., and Qigong Meditation Small Circulation—The Foundation of Spiritual Enlightenment 2nd ed.

https://ymaa.com/publishing/book/qigong-books

Kenneth Cohen has a book entitled The Way of Qigong: The Art and Science of Chinese Energy Healing.

https://www.amazon.com/Way-Qigong-Science-Chinese-Healing/dp/0345421094?asin=0345421094&revisionId=&format=4&depth=1

In it he writes -

DAO-YIN: THE ORIGINAL QIGONG

Qigong has been known by many names throughout Chinese history. In ancient times, it was called tu gu na xin "expelling the old energy, drawing in the new," xing qi "moving the qi," yang sheng "nourishing the forces of life," nei gong "inner achievement," or most commonly as dao-yin "leading and guiding the energy." Dao-yin can also be translated as "guiding the qi and extending the limbs," thus referring to two of the primary components of self-healing: breathing and exercise.

[Doc Stier]

DAO-YIN: THE ORIGINAL QIGONG

Qigong has been known by many names throughout Chinese history. In ancient times, it was called tu gu na xin "expelling the old energy, drawing in the new," xing qi "moving the qi," yang sheng "nourishing the forces of life," nei gong "inner achievement," or most commonly as dao-yin "leading and guiding the energy." Dao-yin can also be translated as "guiding the qi and extending the limbs," thus referring to two of the primary components of self-healing: breathing and exercise.

Agreed. During my years of study starting in the early 1960's, the internal cultivation practices I was taught were called Nei-Kung, Yang-Sheng and Tao-Yin. It wasn't until 20 years later that such methods began to be popularly labeled as Chi-Kung or Qigong.

However, the names used to identify these training methods has never been as relevant as the results of the training regimen. So, call them what you will, but make sure that you're capable of personally demonstrating the fruits of your efforts for all to see, rather than wasting time debating the labels.