Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Postby robert on Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:18 pm

Mrwawa wrote:I'm not a taijiquan historian, but it seems like the origin of tjq is with farmers, soldiers, bodyguards etc. Not with doctors or mystics. It's probably the case that tjq and the precursor of Qigong developed under the same philosophical umbrella, but weren't necessarily connected. Only later were Qigong exercises retrofit onto tjq.

For example, it seems Feng Zhiqiang brought Qigong exercises into tjq through experience with Hubyaozhen. Chen fake seemed to be focused on the martial aspects. People can correct me if I am wrong.

The body mechanics of taijiquan come from daoyin. If you read about xingyi and yiquan they say the same thing about their arts. Historically taijiquan can be traced back to CWT. In the Chen family genealogy they have a poem by CWT that starts -

I sigh for years past, oh those days of battle vanquishing hordes of bandits, so many moments of risk and danger. I was bestowed with imperial favor – meaningless. Now I am old and weary, and I have ended up with only a copy of the Daoist Yellow Courtyard Classic as my companion. When boredom sets in, I create boxing sets. When busy, I plow the fields. In my free time, I teach some students and grandkids, then I leave it to them to become dragons and tigers in their own time…


The Yellow Court Classic is an early neidan (meditation) manual. It discusses the elixer fields and physiology and the like. Chen Xin's book The Illustrated Canon of Chen Family Taijiquan has a section on the meridian's and he wrote it around 1910 - 1920. A number of Chen Fake's students mention Chen Xin's book - HJS, Shen Jiazhen, and Gu Luixin. Taijiquan is a martial art, but the body mechanics are based on daoyin. An analogy might be modern physics. Modern physics isn't mathematics, but you need to be fairly good at math to do modern physics.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Postby robert on Mon Mar 13, 2023 12:55 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:Can anybody descript from their own experience and feeling how the Qi moves along the path from martial arts prospective? Does it match the description of Meridian on doing Qi Qong or TCM? Does it move up from the back and down from the front, up from the front and down from the back, or up and down from the middle? ".

In the Taijiquan Classics, in Essentials of Playing Hands it is wrritten -

以心行氣。務沈著。乃能收歛入骨。所謂命意源頭在腰隙也。

Use the heart/mind to circulate qi. Sink the qi, then it is able to collect and enter the bone (spine), the song says "the command comes from the yao (waist/lower back)".


Qi is stored in the dantian. With taiji we start by sinking qi to the dantian. When we open the qi goes out to the extremities and when we close it returns to the dantian. Up the spine, down the front of the body. The taiji, xingyi, and bagua that I studied all had requirements of xu ling ding jin (lightly raise the top of the head) and contain the chest ;) Up the back down the front. If you look at the standard meridians they are denoted yin and yang. The yang meridians open the body, and the yin meridians close the body. It's how the body works. If you understand martial arts' type qi it makes sense.

suckinlhbf wrote:The answer I get from asking this question is always "You are not there yet".

If you're not there yet, then start with muscle-tendon meridians. The muscle-tendon meridians and the standard qi meridians line up. If you are connected, you should understand the muscle-tendon meridians.
Last edited by robert on Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Postby suckinlhbf on Mon Mar 13, 2023 1:54 pm

It starts in the feet, is directed by the waist, and manifests in the fingers. Like a wave along a spiral path. Up the inner leg channel, up the spine, to the palm on the outside of the arm channel


Thanks, Origami. I get this. Its like something flow from feet to spine to fingers. It can also like go out from the fingers and draw from the feet. Flow straight or spiral depend on the movement. Front up and back down for retraction. Back up and front down for release. But how are they related to the orbit flowing within the trunk of the body? Or is their another orbit? The initiating point is Dantian but the flow is more than the body trunk. It leaves me wondering would Qi Gong and Nei Gong are different. From the time I learnt kung fu, we said Nei Gong. Qi Gong came to the public after "Qi Gong Fever". I haven't met anyone yet who only do Qi Gong. Would like to hear what they would say.

muscle-tendon meridians

Can you explain this. Please excuse me for my ignorance. First time see this term.
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Re: Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Postby robert on Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:06 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:
muscle-tendon meridians

Can you explain this. Please excuse me for my ignorance. First time see this term.

In taijiquan manuals you'll sometimes see that they talk about sinews. The Chinese is usually jin. You may have heard of the Yi Jin Jing - that's often translated as The Muscle-Tendon Changing Classic. Muscle-tendons are also grouped into meridians - Jing Jin. Here's an example -

https://www.jadeinstitute.com/posts/the-sinew-tendino-muscular-meridians/

I suspect this is where the idea of Anatomy Trains comes from. It's two thousand years old :)
Last edited by robert on Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Postby suckinlhbf on Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:27 pm

In taijiquan manuals you'll sometimes see that they talk about sinews. The Chinese is usually jin. You may have heard of the Yi Jin Jing - that's often translated as The Muscle-Tendon Changing Classic. Muscle-tendons are also grouped into meridians - Jing Jin. Here's an example -

https://www.jadeinstitute.com/posts/the ... meridians/

I suspect this is where the idea of Anatomy Trains comes from. It's two thousand years old :)


Oh... It refers to The Twelve Main Meridian and The Eight Extra Meridian. The term come up in the old TCM teachings and the modern CMA teachings. I am yet to find it in older CMA books relating to martial arts usage. I believe the meridians do exist but curious on how do the details help martial arts training and usage.
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Re: Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Postby robert on Mon Mar 13, 2023 2:49 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:Oh... It refers to The Twelve Main Meridian and The Eight Extra Meridian. The term come up in the old TCM teachings and the modern CMA teachings. I am yet to find it in older CMA books relating to martial arts usage. I believe the meridians do exist but curious on how do the details help martial arts training and usage.

There are only twelve muscle-tendon meridians IIRC. There are muscles and tendons in the human body. The Chinese can group them however they want. The grouping makes sense. If you use the neidan model the body is a laboratory (or landscape).

Image
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Re: Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Postby origami_itto on Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:32 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:
It starts in the feet, is directed by the waist, and manifests in the fingers. Like a wave along a spiral path. Up the inner leg channel, up the spine, to the palm on the outside of the arm channel


Thanks, Origami. I get this. Its like something flow from feet to spine to fingers. It can also like go out from the fingers and draw from the feet. Flow straight or spiral depend on the movement. Front up and back down for retraction. Back up and front down for release. But how are they related to the orbit flowing within the trunk of the body? Or is their another orbit?


So at the risk of sounding more foolish, I'll take a stab at laying out my current understanding.

We'll just use Qi as a term, but don't think by using this I imply I believe in making people move without touching them or any other poppycock.

Bear in mind when reading this that I have no credentials and don't know shit from shinola but love to run my mouth.

So there are eight channels. The first two are Tu Mo from the coccyx up the back to the top of the skill and down to the roof of the mouth, The Jen mo goes from the tip of the tongue down the front down to the taint/choad/space between anus and genitals.

The lesser heavenly circulation is consciously moving qi through a series of gates up the back and down the front. The qi follows the yi/mind/intent/awareness, so to circulate it, we simply move our awareness along these points in a circuit.

What does it do? I dont really know specifically. It opens you up. Gives you greater control over the articulation points along the path. Clears out blockages.... or maybe the blockages being clear facilitates it?

The physical and energetic feed into and amplify each other.Like the energetic refinement of jing-qi-shen-jing-qi-shen-jing, etc. Like the up and down of the circulation in the back and front, a continous cycle of energy strengthening the body and increasing control and that control and strength and release facilitating the flow of energy.

The lesser circulation in my opinion isn't lesser than, but it's simpler, so it's easier to start.

The greater circulation starts incorporating the limbs. You do as above then as follows.

First the Tai Mo goes around the waist to the back, then up from there to the heart along the Ch'ueng Mo, the Yang Yu Wei Mo passes along a similar path from around the navel to the chest to the shoulders then down the outside of the arm to the tip of the middle finger to the palm. The Yun Yu Wei Mo goes from the palms inside the arms back to the chest, picking up on the Yang Chiao Mo from just below the ears down the outside of the legs to the bubbling well, then the Yun Chiao Mo goes from the bubbling well up through the inside of the leg to the eyebrows.

And as with the lesser, circulating through these pathways opens the channels and nourishes the body which feeds the meditation, etc etc.

End result, as pertains to martial arts, stronger, more coordinated, with a better ability to let plain old mechanical energy move through m
ore freely. Faster healing. Temporary "healing"...

I've really only started to make headway here in the last few months. I still have a lot to learn.

So the channels open, energy moving freely, saturated with awareness. The energy moves to various parts of the body faster and more precisely resulting in more precise movements and articulation.

SO, what I have noticed as a result of this is the sensation of the energy moving through my body.

I had for many years been thinking of things like tensing up my whole body at once and sort of expanding as the way the energy was released.

What I'm feeling lately is that it's literally moving from my feet up through the gates in those channels out to where it wants to go.

Of course, understanding this here that it's different for movement versus fajin. Fajin isn't just normal movement sped up. It's a different thing. Store like drawing a bow, move like reeling silk, release like firing an arrow.

So yeah, the energy feels like a ball travelling along those paths. It has to pass through every point or it gets lost. If you keep it together it can produce a ton of power. It's like cracking a whip, kinda, not really but sort of. From the dantien it shoots down to the feet and then rolls back up the leg, coccyx up the back to the shoulder out the arm.

It's not one big tight mass. It is like a pulse traveling down a wire, a wave on a rope. Your arm describes a sprial wave and the energy moves along it, like a surfer.

Sometimes.

Other times it's different. It's not just one thing all the time.

Like in massage. if you just put pressure on the body and push directly, it takes a lot of strength and can wear on your joints. If instead you make a circle and push into one end of the circle, the hand at the other end can deliver a lot more pressure with less work and wear on your own frame. From the outside it looks identical, but you know how you're shaping the intention and that's what matters.

So yes, to me at this point it looks like there are a lot of different ways it moves around that have slightly different flavors.
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Re: Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Postby suckinlhbf on Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:58 am

It has to pass through every point or it gets lost

Everybody's Energy or Qi (a term) flows. The difference is how strong it is. The path may be slightly different too. I used to have shaking and vibration doing standing meditation with intention leading the flow through the path. Shaking got more vigorous when focus on the tip (the cross over point). It might come from the focus and intention on leading and the body was relax and comfortable after the shaking. I changed to nurturing approach, let it free flow, and feel the flow then the vibration was gone.
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Re: Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Postby windwalker on Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:44 am

Some thoughts

Important to have ones practice guided by someone who is recognized in this area. "qi gong"

Self experimentation while interesting, one should understand the possible risk involved.
The effects that if practiced incorrectly may not be too bad with what are called passive methods tend to be self correcting,
while active or forced methods are said to be quicker, may damage a person in ways they or western doctors may not be able to understand or fix..

Case in point... One of my managers, Vietnamese, who was into qi gong..
i had lent him some books on it, he followed some of the practices mentioned in the books.
At a later date, we would meet again.

He the regional manager for Asia-Pacific region.
Was kind of shocked at his appearance in meeting him in Thailand.

He mentioned he felt he had done something wrong,
was unable to sleep, seemed to be in his words "on" all the time...
Asking me if I knew of anyone that might be able to help him...

Qi gong practices, divided into hard and soft , active or passive....
Just as some of the hard practices like building iron hand or burning palm for example considered a hard practice...
If done with out using the recommended herbal treatments, "jow " using a direct approach one might achieve a result while at the same time cause
problems at the time or much later on from the effects of the conditioning itself...by those looking for end result not caring much about possible injury...


Other practices may seem benign at first causing problems much later on..

The system qi gong is based on,,,whether one follows, believes in it or not..

Is running, working as designed....

explore at your own risk... :-\


Not mentioned so far, something that I experienced

"drumming " a rhythmic pulsation, felt deep within the LDT said to be from the effects of the dantien becoming full and active..
Noted at the time only practicing taiji, and some meditative aspects before the training in Honolulu, HI.

"taiji does not use the meridians" ...hasn't aligned with my experience or of those I know.
Might be more correct to say its not the main focus or point of the practice..

Asking one of my taiji bothers about some other qi gong practices...he mentioned
"taiji is a kind of qi gong if practiced correctly, no need for other practices"
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:50 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Postby origami_itto on Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:02 am

suckinlhbf wrote:
It has to pass through every point or it gets lost

Everybody's Energy or Qi (a term) flows. The difference is how strong it is. The path may be slightly different too. I used to have shaking and vibration doing standing meditation with intention leading the flow through the path. Shaking got more vigorous when focus on the tip (the cross over point). It might come from the focus and intention on leading and the body was relax and comfortable after the shaking. I changed to nurturing approach, let it free flow, and feel the flow then the vibration was gone.

I'm sure there's different ways to do different things. I'm talking about my own subjective experience based on the guidance within my own tradition and studies.

Within that, it has to start from the feet and pass through every gate or the energy is lost. Think about it like a house with a courtyard and walls. To go outside you have to open all of the doors and walk through them. If you don't open a door, you can't pass beyond the wall. The jin is the same way. If a gate is blocked, nothing flows through it and you're not going to get THE power of taijiquan. You can do some punches and do some damage, sure, you're not completely worthless, right? But you're not getting the full monty that taijiquan has to offer.

I'm getting this vibration in movement currently. I'm starting to think it might be the coffee, but it wasn't apparent till I got to a certain degree of relaxation. The residual tension was hiding it, but it seems less pronounced later in the day and after extended standing.

Shaking and tremors in standing, definitely happen. I see it like little pockets of release. A couple times I've had a spontaneous wave of movement up my spine.

I definitely agree with windwalker on the wiser guidance. I have played around a little and regretted it. Stuck with what teachers tell me and feel much better.

Definitely the most important thing for me at the moment is emotional regulation. Stress and anger make me physically sick. It's part of why I've started working out and meditating so much more lately. I have to regulate what's going on in my body or it will start to turn on me.

It's like new knobs and buttons in my control center have opened up and I have to be careful not to bump into them. This is another reason to stick with the teacher's guidance.
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Re: Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Postby suckinlhbf on Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:25 am

emotional regulation. Stress and anger make me physically sick

Glad you get that. I have been there before. Now.... whatever... 无为而无不为.
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Re: Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:54 am

It has been well known for several millenia in Asia that internal training methods of every kind such as Tao-Yin, Yang-Sheng, Chi-Kung, Yoga Pranayama, etc, are capable of both healing and harming the practitioner.

The reason is simple. Unlike external exercises and training methods, internal cultivation practices involve the movement of invisible energetic and physiological components which can't be easily observed or monitored via the usual sensory perceptions like the external movements of the limbs and torso can be. Instead, they can only be monitored through inner feeling which untrained individuals generally lack.

As such, internal practices are in many ways akin to feeling your way through an unfamiliar space in total darkness, where the likelihood of accidental injury is very probable without an experienced guide who already knows the safest pathway.

Those who foolishly believe themselves to be sufficiently intelligent enough and competent enough to learn and practice solely through self-study are, imo, almost certainly guaranteed to encounter problems and injuries along the way. ymmv.
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Re: Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:58 am

Yes and let me add to that
Those following false teachers are sure to encounter harmful outcomes
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Re: Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Postby windwalker on Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:29 pm

:-\
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Re: Damo Mitchell: Tai Chi does not use the meridians

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:07 am

Did anyone really get anything out of that
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